More On The Continuing M4 Controversy
A link-rich extended entry on the ongoing problems surrounding the M4 carbine and its competition.
For your consideration.
posted by Concerned American | 12:45 AM
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Thursday, February 10, 2011
A link-rich extended entry on the ongoing problems surrounding the M4 carbine and its competition.
For your consideration.
11 Comments:
Condensed version: The Army is determined to keep the M4 family no matter how crappy it is proven to be or no matter how many servicemen die.
Bottom line.
Easy change scenario: put the Army's entire materiel command into AfPak with M4's and have them do front line duty. We will have a new, better weapon before you can blink. Just like the MRAP vehicles, the pussy, cowardly procurement officers will sit in their offices and do nothing while real men are dying.
They disgust me.
Interesting.
I'm still an AR fan. It's what I know, and the platform has never let me down in my 17 years with it.
That's not to say it's the perfect platform, or even the best, but in spite of all her flaws, she's still my baby.
AP
There are no on-going "problems" with the M4... only other competitors that want a govt contract.
Starting with the XM-16, I've worked with many different "varieties" of the M-16/M4 and various clones over the years, the "problems" have been limited and comparable to any other front line battle rifle.
CA,
Off topic: Hope ya got everything backed and secure, they took John Galt's site down earlier.
I started on the M-1 as a kid, the USMC issued me a M-14 in boot camp and later I got the M-16A1. No comparison between a real rifle and a M-16.
I pity you guys that grew up with the M-16/M-4. I thought it was junk then(albeit a great target rifle) and I still stick to it today. It beats throwing rocks but I never want one in my hands as a combat weapon. I just cannot for the life of me understand the fascination with this substandard weapon? WHY?????
Semper Fi,0321
There is nothing wrong with an AR that cant be fixed with an operating rod and a piston.
Keep it from shitting where it eats and you have something.
Grenadier1
Having actually killed people with the M-16A1/2 and M203, I can state unequivocably that it works, has never let me down(and I never let my rifle down either), and I have an AR-15 today. Yes, .308s are the tops, and in lots of situations, they beat a .223. Got them as well. It's all about the body behind the trigger. Anybody who doesn't think the M-4 doesn't work or is ineffective, I pose this question: Would you be willing to expose yourself to fire from one, wielded by a competent shooter? Talk sense. I hear this "manly caliber" machismo spouted by people all the time, and when I ask if they carried an AR-15 type, day in, day out, combat, and killed and duked it out with the bad guys, I hear crickets chirping. Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining. Don't want or trust the ARs? Great, go get your .308 and hit it. But stop lying about a thing you DO NOT KNOW ABOUT. III. Signed, a Viet-Nam Combat Veteran, wounded four times, no Purple Heart, but a belly-full of non-hackers.
Sean,
how is it you were issued a M-203 in Vietnam? Seems a little early for that weapon.
They took my M-79 away from me in June 1975 and gave me a brand new M-16/M-203 while I was an ATL in 2nd Recon Bn, 2nd MarDiv. Never saw a M-203 in 3rd MarDiv 2 years earlier.
Now also explain to me what I lied about? I assume you were referring to my comment.
Yes it kills, marginally. To pump 2-7 rounds into a man does not tell me the round does it's job well. And no, I have not killed another human, so I will have to take your word on it over the reports of hundreds of other combat veterans who barely give the weapon and cartridge a passing grade. Why are they always wanting a cartridge with more 'oomph'? Or a weapon with a little bit more 'reliability'? If that's the case, we should never have changed the M-16A1.
I would not use one to hunt mule deer or elk in my neck of the woods. Unethical!
Semper Fi, 0321
0321, the lie I refer to is when you say you cannot understand the fascination with this sub-standard weapon, and there being no comparison to a real rifle. You are well aware of the extent of the M-4 and M-16s usage, deadliness, and utility. Either you don't believe your own words, or you are making things up to say about a rifle you don't like. So when I say to stop lying about it, I mean, quit making up generalizations about the rifle, and get down to the nitty gritty, ie, specifics. Of which I am well aware. Since you know hundreds of other combat veterans whose assessment differs from mine on the M16/M4, I'm sure you could give me at least a hundred of those names for me to ask a few questions. The rifle does not kill, "marginally". It kills with finality, and I have used it for the same purpose more than half a dozen times, and only used two rounds AFTER they were down, to make sure they were really down. You know, like them fellers in WW2 did, after they socked it to the bad guys with a 30.06. If you will recall your stellar days with the USMC, the Corps recieves the good stuff last, yes? I have a picture of myself, holding an M203 in Cambodia, circa Sep.1970, when it was new issue to troops in combat areas, specifically, 1st Cav.Div, 7th Cav Bn. A bit early for the Corps, not the senior service(June 2, 1775) But hell, Gyrene, I like you guys, and have worked with the Corps on various gigs in Europe, Asia, and elsewhere. I learned more from some guys in Marine Recon. For the record on the M16, the only stoppages I've ever had in 40yrs use of it is that brief instant while switching mags. See you at the top.
Sean,
thanks for the reply. I actually have to admit that I'm not qualified to give an unbiased opinion.
You helped me to realize how much I truly hate that weapon. I hate the sound it makes when it fires,"sproing". I hate how the ammonia fumes burn my eyes from gas leakage under the charging handle during rapid fire. I hate how it jams with sand during amphib ops, etc. I hate how the wind and rain blow the bullets around.
I've shot hundreds of ground squirrels and a few coyotes with my .223's and ended up selling them all. Always went back to a .30 cal.
So you're right. I do hate it. All my rifles are 7.62x39 and up, to .416 Taylor. And that makes me happy. So for those of you who have a liking for the M-16/5.56, my apologies for running off at the mouth. There's a niche for everything.
Sincerely, 0321
FWIW, I posted the link to illustrate ongoing concerns about M4 reliability under certain field conditions.
Sean's comment about "not letting [his] rifle down" is apt, methinks.
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