Why Do YOU Obey The Law?
Read all of it, and then tell me this:
When bankrupt retirees and homeless people are tearing financial industry personnel, their lawyers, their regulators, and their other accomplices to bloody shreds, are you going to intervene with the crowd and urge them to desist, lest they "become the evil" they seek to punish?
Really?
posted by Concerned American | 3:32 AM
26 Comments:
Do we intercede on behalf of Wall Street, Bankers, Lawyers, et al?
Not so much.
In fact, expand the list...
Each and every person in America today over the age of 18 has taken a position and demonstrated, in some verifiable manner, their disposition regarding respect for our founding principles, or lack thereof.
If every Statist, Collectivist, Liberal, Lawyer, and Politician in America suddenly disappeared, went away, vanished, or moved to Russia where they belong...the republic would once again be safe for generations.
Why would any Patriot interupt such a cleansing of the American gene pool?
Sam
III
Kerodin.com
Which Law or Laws are you referring to there are to many to count, so why bother trying to obey laws that NOBODY knows about or understands.
The best someone can try to do is not get caught doing something blatantly stupid.
And when not if, it comes to the point of the homeless and retirees ripping the lawyers and regulators to shreds I´ll be cheering them on if not outright assisting them in their endeavors. Sounds like True Poetic Justice to me.
Death to Tyrants and their MINIONS
Dennis
III
Texas
Righteous Justice.
Just what I always dreamed of, the French Terror come to America. Maybe some day we will witness mobs marching down the street with the heads and entrails of "enemies of the people bobbing on pikes. Maybe we can witness the mob then target grocers who have no groceries on their shelves, Christians who oppose the savagery and anyone else unfortunate to be in their path (just as the mob did in France)-- including the wives and children of the "enemies" of the people-- and see them receive the same treatment. After all, when you've breached the envelope, a little more death means nothing.
Maybe we can cause Robespierre's dream to come true here in America. He was such a great guy. He became a tyrant in his quest to defeat tyranny. Just the kind of leader I'd love to rise from the depths of the putrid swamp. Of course, his head ended up on a pike too.
The person who would lead the mob into the kind of behavior you describe, is nothing but a lawless mad dog and tyrant in his own right.
Contrast this with the scrupulous attention to the law (true law) and due process given by the forefathers of this country, while still in England, when they tried and executed the tyrant Charles I. Contrast this with the fact that the American colonies rose up, UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF THEIR LAWFUL MAGISTRATES AND NOT AS A MOB, to defeat the British tyranny.
The following was the blueprint for defeating tyrants, without becoming one, which animated the colonies more than Tom Paine:
http://www.constitution.org/vct/vindiciae.htm.
Jerri Lynn:
Thank you for your comment.
Would you care to explain (in essay form, preferably) how Enlightenment-era ideals will be implemented, in detail, into today's polity?
Not being a jerk; want to know your concrete proposal on how the coming Ugliness can be avoided/mitigated.
By the way, have you read Hansen's A Nation Of Peasants? It bears on the issues you raise -- specifically, the relationship between (as Codevilla labeled them) the ruling class and the country class...
You write it -- we'll publish it in rebuttal to "Obey The Law".
The HUGE media conglomerate that laid off 200 dedicated employees in 2009 -- me among them -- has just won a federal labor commission hearing. Four part-time employees maintained that they were eligible for severance benefits. They got nothing, not even a "Sorry" or a "Thank you" for a combined 70 years of service. This corporation owns newspapers and TV stations in Va, NC, FL and other places. What they paid the lawyers to defeat this pitiful plea probably far exceeds the actual severance they could have paid. They decided to send a message instead. They don't care about fairness, they don't care about public goodwill. They are a monopoly. WE are "animate capital." It's "just business."
The Greek philosopher observed "Boys throw stones at frogs for sport, but the frogs do not die in sport but in earnest."
Intervene? It's a struggle not to round up the villagers and go on the march.
The sociopaths are running things now, people.
Those who kept to the moral high ground are often found buried in it in mass graves.
Those who still work for this corporation are afraid to comment on the outrages. Their bargaining unit has no power anymore. The robber barons are still with us, with the nod and the wink from regulatory agencies.
To throw people into this joblessness environment for the sake of bumping the stock price up a few notches for the investors -- and all the employees were also investors...
If they could have sent us to the camps, I fully believe they would have. Those who did receive severance pay were forced to sign a document promising not to take legal action later for any reason. No signee, no money.
I'm the least violent person you can imagine. I feel sorry for insects and mice in my house (I catch and release), and for the copperheads I have killed in my yard to protect my family. They at least act only on instinct. Our executive predators have a choice.
No sympathy when payback comes around for these reptilians.
Concerned American,
I have nothing but contempt for "Enlightment-era" ideals. My premises are based ONLY on God's law. Robespierre embodied the Enlightenment.
And, though the signers of the Declaration of Independence were in many respects, products of the Enlightenment, God's law still infused their thinking. Thus, the War of Independence has been called the Presbyterian War and John Witherspoon was thereby singled out for particular blame by the British.
In short, my position is that God's law CAN and must be implemented in any era, because He is the Creator of all. I can't help you on the Enlightenment part.
Jeri Lynn, have you ever heard of the Son´s of Liberty. Perfect examples of Well Planed Mob Justice.
Please wake up before commenting.
Dennis
III
Texas
Jerry Lynn,
I hope you read this as intended: A discussion of the topic and not a personal attack.
This topic requires a full essay, and I am putting one together for a book project. But, in a nutshell:
We are faced with a simple moral choice, do we bend knee to the Collectivists who have exerted power over us in an attempt to be our Masters, or do we reject their efforts by any means necessary and restore the founding principles of the republic, primarily that each man is truly free and true liberty is the paradigm under which we choose to live.
I choose Liberty and founding principles. I choose not to have the fruits of my labor raped from me and delivered to another person by threat of force. I choose to pass on a world to my posterity where they do not have to work for their neighbors, or face prison as a penalty.
The Left (in America and beyond) has demonstrated countless times that they will not yield in their efforts to completely subjugate the population to their demands.
So, we have a problem. The policies of the Left are murdering the economy and the republic. They will not voluntarily remove themselves from the controls of society.
Many believe that only violence will have the Left stand down. In any clash of arms there will be excesses, that is the nature of war and the nature of man. Is Liberty worth the risk that a French-like Reign of Terror will visit America? Most who love Liberty can answer that without much hesitation.
But, we were here twice before and no such Reign of Terror occured. In Jefferson's revolution and in Lincoln's, the values of Americans were strong enough that we did not devolve to such gratuitous excess as standard operating procedure. The former saw Liberty as the victor, and there was no slaughter of those who lost. The latter saw the death of Liberty, and again, no Reign of Terror.
Those on the true Right are not innately disposed to senseless violence - only so much as is required to achieve the objective. Once the objective has been achieved, live and let live becomes the rule. And noble men will police their own and prevent wanton agression.
The Left in America has demonstrated countless times that they will use violence to subjugate their Countrymen. Buy HealthCare or face a fine. Don't pay the fine, you'll face armed men from Government who will take you to prison or kill you if you resist. They have brought the republic to this point.
Remember the lessons of the Einsatzgruppen. A few thousand dedicated Nazi's murdered about 1.5 million people. The Einsatzgruppen often recruited local volunteers from the community to bring their violence.
If a Reign of Terror evolves in this conflict between Left and Right, it will be those of the Left, those who would be our Masters, who bring it to life, and it will be the innate moral compass of those on the Right who end it.
Between beginning and end, there will be many sad tales. It is sad that the Left has brought us to this point, with an impending economic collapse that will lay bare for the wolves of the world, foreign and domestic, all that we cherish.
Yet, here we stand at the brink of oblivion. Each of us must choose: Liberty, or Subjugation.
Getting back to a state of Liberty will be ugly.
Living without Liberty is far more ugly and offensive to the Soul...
Sam
III
Kerodin.com
CA,
The French Terror was the first thing that came to mind when I saw that post, as well. I don't believe that either Ms. Ward or I expect any "Enlightenment ideals" to be borne by the crowd. The mob's once-justified violence will simply metastasize, and go beyond its original scope, precisely as it did during the French Revolution. Innocents will be sucked into the violent vortex, chewed up and spit out. I believe that was the reality that Ms. Ward was pointing out. "The wrath of man does not work the justice of God." Justified violence can quickly transform into irrational wrath.
Next, it is a historical trend that the individuals who show up to organize the angry mobs, no matter how justified the mob's anger is, will inflict worse tyranny than the tyrant they overthrew or succeeded.
The law of unintended consequences is immutable.
I don't expect that violence can be avoided. But I do not believe that it will need any egging on.
Violence is a means of stopping other people from imposing their will upon you. Not a means of imposing your will upon others. Mob violence starts out as the former, and ends up at the latter. I urge everyone to remain sober. I urge everyone to regard violence, even defensive violence, with regret. If an ounce of bravado or desire for glory leaks into one's heart upon thinking about the subject of violence, one ought to re-evaluate one's position. That's not a popular proposition. But it is true.
Jerri Lynn:
Please note that I used the term "Enlightenment-era" to place your citation into context.
I offer the same opportunity, phrased (hopefully) more appealingly:
Please explain, in detail, how God's law can be implemented in this time, with these tools, and this polity, so as to avoid the coming Ugliness.
You explain it, and we'll print it.
Brass:
I offer you the same opportunity as Jerri Lynn:
Explain in detail, at this time and with this polity, how the wrongs cited in Denninger's piece will be righted, and more generally, how confidence in 'the system' will be restored so as to preclude the coming Ugliness.
Or, speaking more directly to your post, how the inevitable violence will be mitigated and properly directed.
You write it, we'll print it.
STOP THE LOOTING.
START THE PROSECUTING.
Al adds,
OR THERE WILL BE SHOOTING.
To try and sum Denninger, crime pays. At least right now. Particularly amazing is Karl's assertion that there are people who have not made a mortgage payment in a year who aren't getting a hit on their credit report. The crooks cover for each other, the powerful protect the powerful, and those of us who continue to play by the rules are the only ones called to account for playing by the rules. (That's the middle of the CW2 cube, by the way.)
Other readers have hit this on the head, once violence is unleashed, there will be unintended consequences and it will be gruesome.
The alternative is slavery.
Kerodin, thank you for thoughtful post. Though I certainly appreciate your focus on the moral and philosophical conundrums of mob violence, I must respectfully but firmly disagree with your pro-Right bias. At their extremes, both the Left (Soviet and Chinese Marxists, for example) and the Right (German Nazis and Italian Fascists, for example) have perpetrated unfathomable brutality and tyranny. In the USA, the Right has been no less culpable in the "murder of the economy and the republic" than the Left. Nixon, Reagan,and Bush II, for example, were as egregious in their collectivist evils as Johnson, Clinton, and Obama. Finally, let us recall that the predominant philosophical view among our Founders was Classical Liberalism underpinned by notions of Natural Law, such as those expounded by John Locke.
I am not particularly wise and I am certainly not "enlightened." Spiritually, I see myself as a mere seeker of Truth - a common pilgrim trekking a narrow, difficult road through barren terrain fraught with danger and evil at every turn. In the coming travails, within my humble circle of influence, I will do my utmost to prevent - and, that failing, to avoid any support of - mindless, wanton, collective violence. But I am realistic enough to know that, if it does occur, I probably will not be able to affect it much one way or another, as it will acquire a rampant life of its own.
That said, I will not hesitate to employ violence, if need be, in the righteous defense of kith and kin, while taking no visceral joy in the act. Furthermore, though I do not personally know you and other members of CA's forum and though I now fumble through my seventh decade of life, I am still in decent shape and would most certainly take up arms to stand by you or anyone of your stripe in a fight to the death.
Andrew
CA,
Again, I tell you, there likely is no avoiding the coming ugliness. And I have certainly never advocated restoring confidence in "the system." What I am saying is that one ought not to be a cheerleader for the coming ugliness. What will happen, will happen. What you should be saying at this point and time, because you recognize human nature, is "Make sure that when it begins, that you leave all those who are not directly involved out of it."
There is, unfortunately, a wildfire on the horizon, and sane people now need to start pouring water on the things that should not get burned.
Posting a picture of a mob burning someone at the stake does little to instill a sense of sobriety on anyone's part.
My goodness, since when is being a faith based person the same as being a doormat?
I am a Vietnam vet, been there, done that. There is nothing to like about war.
On the other hand, the Bible is full of war stories with God's full blessings. For that matter, His commands to do the deed (Jericho comes to mind).
Being a faith centered person is not the same as being a pacifist. Jerri Lynn and Brass, bless your hearts, read your Bibles with an open mind. God is love, you bet. He is also tough on those that perpetuate sin against His people. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah Himself. There comes a time when enough is enough.
I think that you, like me, are just your everyday American, walking around, trying to pursue life, liberty and happiness. Violence and tyranny is visited on me daily from faceless despots, electronically robbing me, controlling my movement, making me fear to write my ideas down(I quit writing my blog to avoid going on a watchlist), interfering with my food and energy supply, etc, etc.I fear my government. I do not see a limitation of violence in kind. Some of the worst of our enslavers do need to be encouraged to live elsewhere, yet, as others have pointed out, violence for the sake of violence is tyranny.I do not think a new Robespierre would be tolerated.By any of us.OK, enough of my rambling thoughts.
The photo is clearly a reenactment of **rich nobles** and government officials punishing one of their peasants, a tax resister or a starving man who poached one of the King's deer for his family, or someone who wrote down an unorthodox thought or questioned authority, or...
And it was legal. Just like Waco, and with the same end result. The upper classes WERE the law.
The Nazis & the Fascists are not right wing but just versions of the left !
The Soviet Union went financially bust, but they didn't end up with a Hitler-type strongman bent on a war of internal scapegoating and external territorial conquest. So did Argentina. So did Zimbabwe. So did Finland. Do you think Greece will choose a Hitler after they go bust? How about the USA?
I see one obvious way to dismantle this mess peacefully, and that is to get a few million people to stop paying taxes. Sadly, too many that are aware of the coming bust in the USA are still doing politics, trying to figure out how to get their retirements funded by taxation. You want politics? You're in danger of getting them French-style.
Anon:
Ask the Poles, the Georgians, the folks in the 'Stans, and the Balts how they really feel about Putin and his petrushka, Medevedev before you go celebrating the fall of the Sovs as a peaceful transition to "normalcy".
In a word...no
In my small county we have 17 prisons. Most of the county's income derives from DOC employees which make up a disproportunate percentage of the population here.
I have serious doubts of a french revolution style battle happening in my AO. Martial law is more likely.
While I suppose that mob action could happen in larger population concentrations I don't see it as a strong possibility in smaller rural areas such as my own.
Having said that....I feel no need to intervene should LEO's or other members of the elite bite off more than they can chew. Around here they have plenty of reinforcemnts from their own ranks.
What? Stop the public executions, the throwing of traitors into Thunderdomes for raffle ticket winners to go in and administer justice to-while I likely watch from the stands with a bag of popcorn and a beer?
Well... you know what Thunderdome reference is from-Mad Max beyond Thunderdome... a post-apocalyptic landscape where rule of law is gone, everything's scarce, non-existent or cobbled together, hunger, disease and death are close companions. The public executions and Thunderdoming of all the traitors on the left and right will be VERY SMALL COMFORT...
So we'd better succeed now while we have SOMETHING of a functional nation-state.
While I call myself a Christian, I often doubt there is enough evidence to convict me of that. I always enjoy hearing people talk about holding the moral high ground, and not getting carried away. When it looks like you're about to be carried away to the gulags, and you've got nothing left but the clothes on your back, and some fresh graves with a lot of your friends and relatives there, I'm the guy you're going to need, and call. It won't be pretty, and you won't like it, but you just might live. Be gentle, and spare me the "be nice" instructions. Nice is how I am to my friends. With my enemies, whatever I have at hand will do. See you at the ball.
Sam,
I'm not against just violence. But I definitely hope that if it is ever used, that it is kept just: only used against the guilty.
It's most likely coming. It's definitely justified. I only want people to keep their brains wired tight well before it occurs.
As James Garner said in "The Americanization of Emily," "It's always the generals with the bloodiest history that talk about how war is hell."
God's people were strong when they recognized their weakness and trusted in His help, not on their own strength. Remember how God pared down Gideon's army? Gideon and 300 men smashed thousands of the Midianites with God's help.
I'm not advocating avoiding justified violence. I'm advocating a sober and reluctant understanding of violence. Things are going to get ugly enough, and I'm just saying that mob violence doesn't need to be advocated. The hotheads will do their own thing. Trust in God. The enemies of freedom and peace will be their own worst enemies by their savage actions.
The EPA is about to slam American manufacturing with another nonsensical environmental regulation. They didn't learn their lesson from the Lead Rebellion.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/28/inhofe-says-epas-new-boiler-rule-kill-nearly-manufacturing-jobs/
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