Western Rifle Shooters Association

Do not give in to Evil, but proceed ever more boldly against it

Tuesday, August 24, 2010

The Wookie-Sphere* Loses Its Mind, Or, Why We Will Lose

Come and join the hubbub as Charles-Johnson-Mania breaks out amongst the merry band:

Baugh Speech -- 8/14 NC RTC

Rebuttal #1: Tom Baugh & Me

Rebuttal #2: Spanking The Monkey

Surrebuttal: More Like Darth Helmet

Surreal Rebuttal #1: Spanking the Monkey: Nazi Asslick Farts Back

Surreal Rebuttal #2: No, I'm Not "Better Than That"

Well....

I guess we no longer need to read each other's books and other material before forming irrevocable conclusions.

And I am also glad to see that we have tossed the logical fallacies handbook aside and have adopted in full the Left's reliance on ad hominem and guilt by association.

Godwin is chuckling, as well.

Finally, contrary to what I wrote in a comment to Surreal Rebuttal #1, we must have every-effing-thing else so completely freaking squared away that we can afford to start shooting at each other inside the foxhole.

Disregard this comment, therefore:

My point in "Brouhaha" was to get folks (not you) looking at hard facts.

The good guys are deemed as utterly impotent by the Bad People.

Baugh, as an individual, doesn't really matter. His ideas do, at least some of them.

He is the only person I have read who speaks in detail of the central problem:

- The majority (> 150M, by my guess) of so-called "Americans" vehemently do not want the burdens of political liberty and individual freedom.

Some corollaries:

- That 150M+ mob will be used to tear apart and eat (literally, in some cases) the old-school minority known variously as Constitutionalists, individualists, et cetera.

- Neither that mob, their masters, nor their lackeys in press and politics fear the old-school minority.

- That absence of fear is because we of the despised minority have not given the looters and moochers any lesson at all, let alone a full-semester course, in 'Oderint dum metuant' -- "Let them hate, so long as they fear".

- Given the above, personal secession (my phrase) and physical isolation from the coming madness is an approach that will buy not only survival, but time for additional skillset acquisition.


Anyone who disputes these assertions needs to explain the arc of the past 30 (100?) years.

The Baugh issue is tertiary to the ones above.

Most of the audience is not thinking anywhere near enough about these points, IMHO.

Hence, "Brouhaha".


So let the fratricide continue -- and accelerate, even.

That way, the odds for the FreeFor can drop to mathematically zero.

For me, I'll be away for a while figuring out why the eff I have wasted so much of my 'only-ever life', in Billy Beck's phrase, on an endeavor that is so clearly and utterly effing doomed.

After all, I too have been denounced by two -- count them, two! -- leading 'freedom advocates' as both a 'Benedict Arnold' and an agent provacateur.

It was said, so it must be true.

Absolutely appalling.

(*h/t to Tam for the term)

51 Comments:

Blogger YeOldFurt said...

Sorry you had to learn this the hard way. The handwriting was on the wall way back.
YeOldFurt

August 24, 2010 at 2:58 AM  
Blogger Toaster 802 said...

"'Come, come!' said Gandalf. 'We are all friends here. Or should be; for the laughter of Mordor will be our only reward, if we quarrel."-Book III, Chapter 6

It cannot be said any better.

August 24, 2010 at 2:58 AM  
Anonymous Justin said...

"Why we will lose..."

Exactly.

This is not a effing game.

Well, not to some of us.

Justin

August 24, 2010 at 3:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Continuing in the spirit of ad hominum attacks: Consider the two who have attacked you, the one who called you and about 50-100 other people as Benedict Arnolds to His cause; and the other who called you an agent provocetuer. That guy has done more to split the community than anyone I know.

Consider the source(s). Just sayin'.

Go ahead and take a week off to look at real estate.

August 24, 2010 at 3:18 AM  
Anonymous Justin said...

If you must take time off, please use it to remind yourself of what is important. None of your time @ WRSA has been a waste.

It is your blog that has been the largest player in my awakening to our current unfolding disaster.

I appreciate your work here.

I think that storm will blow over. It looks like it is, at its core, a big misunderstanding and a bit of willful blindness, in my opinion. Even if it isn't, that's ok. It'll pass.

Anyway, I say again. Your work at WRSA is NOT a waste of time.

My $.02

Justin

August 24, 2010 at 3:29 AM  
Anonymous Redleg said...

I really don't know what to say...shocked & frustrated is probably an understatement. It would appear to my outsiders eyes that personality has been allowed to obscure the mission and the mission is much more important than anyone's personality. I'm not sure how a smoke mission got fired when HE, actually DPICM is clearly what is needed here.

I think your calls have all been on target and I have appreciated the way you have applied logic and reason to this whole mess.

Although I don't post much I have been a faithful WRSA reader (as well as WOG & Sipsey Street) and I have been very sad to see this whole thing go down.

Keep the faith! I know you will do the right thing, even if it is the hardest course of action to pursue.

In Liberty!
Redleg

August 24, 2010 at 3:50 AM  
Blogger Toaster 802 said...

I will not abide Nazis. Neo or other. My nephew was brutally murders by two of them. While they where caught and will do life without parole, I will not forgive.

This does not mean my enemies cannot teach me something. If I wish to learn it.

Bob Wright said something truly profound...

...Mr. Baugh has certainly sent some of our campers screaming into the night, questioning their most deeply held beliefs, the motivations of their brethren, and the very foundation of our great republic. Shame on you.

We must use our minds and not our emotions. Emotional thinking is the realm of old women. This struggle must be populated with grown up men who are willing to set aside all their prejudices, personal grudges, personal satisfaction and personal aggrandizement in order to make decisions based on one criteria only. Each decision must be made on the tactical practicality of that decision as well as the strategic implications of that decision.

...As did JRR Tolkin.

"War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."-Book IV, Chapter 5

And best of all for this issue...

"'Come, come!' said Gandalf. 'We are all friends here. Or should be; for the laughter of Mordor will be our only reward, if we quarrel."-Book III, Chapter 6

Mr Baugh has some of it right, some of it wrong, and a misguided idea of who his, and our friends should be.

It is up to us what is wheat, what is chaff, and what we can take away from it all. And then get on with our work.

The Lord of the rings should be on any patriot reading list. Disparate and distrustful races realize at the eleventh hour that they need each other to not only survive, but win. If they cannot put aside their quarrels, they will be defeated in details.

While Mr. Baugh is willing to deal with the devil, that is his choice with all it's fruits. We the people just have to settle our quarrels, which in the end are not anywhere near selling out to evil.

Shake hands, ruck up, and move out. There is work to do.

August 24, 2010 at 4:00 AM  
Blogger Toaster 802 said...

I will not abide Nazis. Neo or other. My nephew was brutally murders by two of them. While they where caught and will do life without parole, I will not forgive.

This does not mean my enemies cannot teach me something. If I wish to learn it.

Bob Wright said something truly profound...

...Mr. Baugh has certainly sent some of our campers screaming into the night, questioning their most deeply held beliefs, the motivations of their brethren, and the very foundation of our great republic. Shame on you.

We must use our minds and not our emotions. Emotional thinking is the realm of old women. This struggle must be populated with grown up men who are willing to set aside all their prejudices, personal grudges, personal satisfaction and personal aggrandizement in order to make decisions based on one criteria only. Each decision must be made on the tactical practicality of that decision as well as the strategic implications of that decision.

...continued next post

August 24, 2010 at 4:01 AM  
Blogger Toaster 802 said...

...continued

...As did JRR Tolkin.

"War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."-Book IV, Chapter 5

And best of all for this issue...

"'Come, come!' said Gandalf. 'We are all friends here. Or should be; for the laughter of Mordor will be our only reward, if we quarrel."-Book III, Chapter 6

Mr Baugh has some of it right, some of it wrong, and a misguided idea of who his, and our friends should be.

It is up to us what is wheat, what is chaff, and what we can take away from it all. And then get on with our work.

The Lord of the rings should be on any patriot reading list. Disparate and distrustful races realize at the eleventh hour that they need each other to not only survive, but win. If they cannot put aside their quarrels, they will be defeated in details.

While Mr. Baugh is willing to deal with the devil, that is his choice with all it's fruits. We the people just have to settle our quarrels, which in the end are not anywhere near selling out to evil.

Shake hands, ruck up, and move out. There is work to do.

August 24, 2010 at 4:02 AM  
Anonymous Rollory said...

+1 Toaster

For whatever it's worth, I have been convinced for some time that nothing done beforehand will be able to avert or control the crisis. This sort of circular firing squad shows up repeatedly, and always with the best of intentions. The good guys - who may not be known, even to themselves, right now - will put something together again afterward, but only after going through the crucible.

Personal secession sounds about right.

I find Baugh makes perfect sense, and to VDB I would point out that freedom of association is also a Constitutionally-guaranteed right, and those that advocate it are not the enemies of what he claims his cause to be.

August 24, 2010 at 4:04 AM  
Anonymous Rollory said...

and also I should add that WRSA is not by any means a waste of time. This was where I first came across links to Karl Denninger, for example. The information here in general has been tremenously valuable.

August 24, 2010 at 4:05 AM  
Anonymous Defender said...

Toaster, I named my AR-15 Glamdring. "Foe-Hammer," Gandalf's sword. Re-reading LOTR, now in the middle of the battle of Orthanc, and getting more out of it than last time.
Even when the Fellowship was broken, they still prevailed. How? Samwise Gamgee, an unexceptional little hobbit whose very given name means "half-wit." His loyalty and dedication.

Sometimes I feel like Forrest Gump, having been at the crux of events and being able to occasionally illuminate things as a result.
I can see Mr. Baugh's point, though I believe he is naive about people of such disparate philosophies ever working in the cause of freedom for everyone. I read a copy of Nation of Islam's tabloid newspaper The Final Call about 20 years ago. They didn't like our government going off the gold standard. They warned about the biochip. So Baugh is correct in that we have SOME of the same concerns.
Comedian Emo Phillips illustrates how little a divide it takes to kill solidarity.
The joke is something like this: Emo was walking across a bridge and sees a guy about to jump. He asks whether the man is religious. Yes, he is. "Me, too!" says Emo. It turns out that they are both from the Baptist Southern Reformed Blah-blah-blah Church of Something or Other.
"Convention of 1934 or Convention of 1952?" Emo asks.
"1952," says the man.
"Heretic!" says Emo, and pushes him off the bridge.

August 24, 2010 at 4:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can I tell you, in the year or so I've been reading this blog, that is has been the most consistently realistic and on-point?

August 24, 2010 at 5:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm in agreement with a lot of things Justin has brought up. Take a deep breath and for those few that had to get real nasty with you, F*k 'em. You have had a large part in educating many people who would not have learned were it not for your tenacious drive to bring out the truth.
I have not read Baugh's book, only what you posted as excerpts from book and speech. I agree with a lot of what he brings up, there is a lot of reality that most folks don't want to deal with. So instead of dealing with hard facts and statistics that will probably come truer than we want, many people choose to respond by throwing biblical verses or political labels on all they don't agree with. I want hard cold facts for when TSHTF day, Tom will probably have called the shots pretty close.
His latest brings up that a lot of people will have to be shown exactly what to fear from some provincial hillbillies with guns. They laugh at all the gun owners and militia/tea party groups like we don't know a thing except humping our sister and eating watermelon on the porch. Guess what folks? Wake up time is right around the corner. You in your gated communities and high rise apts, you don't have long to look down on the dumb peasants. Value your last days of smug attitudes, and same goes for the dumb masses addicted to TV reality shows and Faux News.
A geology professor taught me that the earth is always in a state of change, and that does not just apply to rocks.
Semper Fi, 0321

August 24, 2010 at 5:51 AM  
Blogger Dennis308 said...

I hope ALL parties in this discourse can find a way to put this behind them. There is too much at stake to allow a few differences of opinion on the thought and beliefs of one individual. Tom Baugh has some good points, so do You C.A., as does the Dutchman. I am a novice in this Attempted Restoration and Even I can see that this is doing our cause no good. We can not resist our oppressors if we do not unite and stay united. What where the words of Ben Franklin
We should hang together, Or We Shall Surely Hang Separately. And was´t there a Sons of Liberty Flag of a dismembered Rattler that had the Words ¨Unite or Die¨. May be it´s not my place to tell the both of You, Since you guys both have WAY MORE expeience at this than I do If So I´ll get my nose out of your buisness but this is my Three Cents Worth. And I´ve said my say.

Dennis
III
Texas

God Save The Republic

August 24, 2010 at 6:09 AM  
Anonymous Reg T said...

CA,

Just in case my comment doesn't get published at Sipsey Street, please allow me to post it here:

"Mike, I'll reiterate. "Nazi Asslick" and the rest of your diatribe simply demonstrates that you've lost it. If you cannot make your point, defend your ideas, with calm, reasoned speech - as you usually do - then you are proving that you don't have either the facts or the moral high ground.

Or are you being a bit of a collectivist yourself? Have you decided the rest of us are too dumb to judge whether or not Tom Baugh has anything of value to say? What is it about Tom that so threatens the likes of you and Bob Wright? If you are afraid of losing your following, be assured it will happen more quickly with name calling, derision and divisiveness."

August 24, 2010 at 6:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If the fans of the constitution could think straight, they wouldn't stay fans of the constitution. People who want governments aren't on the side of liberty. They might get there in the future, but they aren't there today. They aren't really freedom advocates yet, they are works in progress.

Bravery to face pain and death from injury is a different character quality than bravery to face finding out you are mistaken, and having to change your beliefs.

Why don't you take a break and do something fun? Imagine you live on a few acres in the country, and you want to put up an extended burglar alarm to know when people are creeping around your place. Establish a budget, and see how far you can get with wireless cameras, a central recorder, motion detectors, ? Bonus is you might learn a lot about where to find Bambi burgers when you want them.

August 24, 2010 at 6:32 AM  
Blogger Dedicated_Dad said...

It's heartbreaking, really.

Don't let it get to you - this too shall pass...

Don't know where Mike's head is at, this time -- I still believe he *IS* better than this...

DD

August 24, 2010 at 6:47 AM  
Anonymous Reg T said...

CA,

We, I, truly need the motivation and information you provide via your blog. Don't let the frustration of finding that folks we trusted have feet of clay deter you from all the value you have provided through your blog.

I will continue to peek at Sipsey Street from time to time, as there might be something of value to read once in a while, but your blog is the first thing I look at each day, and it would sadden me to lose that. Please hang in there, friend.

August 24, 2010 at 6:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

juz wanted to say thanx-for EVERYTHING.i've learned alot in the past 4 months from you sir-whoever you are.

i still believe when the particles start flying, WE will recognize, assimilate & adapt;like a good boxer.

keep elevating the collective and long live the Republic.

h.

August 24, 2010 at 10:00 AM  
Blogger GunRights4US said...

Your views and your blog are much appreciated CA.

August 24, 2010 at 11:43 AM  
Anonymous GardenSERF said...

I've read all the links associated with this post. Keep in mind that this is from my standpoint as someone who has been participating in the public political arena since the mid 1980s:

A certain amount of division is normal in political groups. It's something that has to be worked out. It's even more difficult, but not impossible, when it comes to one or more Type A Personalities in the mix.

For unity to succeed against a common opponent, people must be willing to shake hands and apologize. This kind of focus requires long-term thinking and real leadership abilities. The Big Man at the center of "the group" will NOT work with a group of people who value individualism and free thought at the center.

The rallies were important and numbers are important at a time and place when people are really looking at such things. Ask yourself if this time was really "it", or was it good practice for the future? During the mid to late 1990s my county org alone used to be able to put 100-200 people at rallies and events around our state with little notice. At that time we were known as the "pitbulls of the Second Amendment".

This is the most important point I have to make: it is very important not to ever lose sight of HOPE.

Tom B's biggest error in his speech is that he put too little value in HOPE itself. Ask someone who has really fought a long difficult battle (a combat veteran, cancer survivor, etc.) what gets them through each day and they will tell you it's a mix of hope, faith, and love.

Don't we do what we do in order to make things better for our families in the future? Stay focused on the prize, but in doing so ask yourself what the prize is: Freedom? A better future for your children and your neighbor's children? Power? Now compare your view of the prize to how the other guy sees it.

Tom made his definition of his prize quite clear in his speech. But, then again so have the opponents of Liberty. This is not to say that Tom's view is wrong. There will be a certain amount of necessary struggle between opposing sides for that prize football. However, after the game is over will the winners, losers, AND spectators leave the field gracefully...or will there be a drunken riot followed by burning the city down?

August 24, 2010 at 12:26 PM  
Anonymous GardenSERF said...

I've read all the links associated with this post. Keep in mind that this is from my standpoint as someone who has been participating in the public political arena since the mid 1980s:

A certain amount of division is normal in political groups. It's something that has to be worked out. It's even more difficult, but not impossible, when it comes to one or more Type A Personalities in the mix.

For unity to succeed against a common opponent, people must be willing to shake hands and apologize. This kind of focus requires long-term thinking and real leadership abilities. The Big Man at the center of "the group" will NOT work with a group of people who value individualism and free thought at the center.

The rallies were important and numbers are important at a time and place when people are really looking at such things. Ask yourself if this time was really "it", or was it good practice for the future? During the mid to late 1990s my county org alone used to be able to put 100-200 people at rallies and events around our state with little notice. At that time we were known as the "pitbulls of the Second Amendment".

This is the most important point I have to make: it is very important not to ever lose sight of HOPE.

Tom B's biggest error in his speech is that he put too little value in HOPE itself. Ask someone who has really fought a long difficult battle (a combat veteran, cancer survivor, etc.) what gets them through each day and they will tell you it's a mix of hope, faith, and love.

August 24, 2010 at 12:27 PM  
Anonymous Abstemio said...

Tolkien is, indeed, one of the greatest proponents of liberty, and he knew the importance of not hitting the wrong target.

In a 1943 letter to his son Christopher, he wrote, "We were born in a dark age out of due time (for us). But there is a comfort: otherwise we should not know, or so much love, what we do love. I imagine a fish out of water is the only fish to have an inkling of water. Also we will have small swords to use. ‘I will not bow before the Iron Crown, nor cast my own small golden scepter down.’ Have at the Orcs, with winged words, hildenaeddan (war-adders), biting darts — but make sure of the mark before shooting."

http://tinyurl.com/239z3cn

He also was not a fan of something he called "Theyocracy." In the same letter to his son Christopher above, he said, ""My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) -- or to'unconstitutional' Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who uses the word State (in any sense other than the inanimate realm of England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remain obstinate!... [note, he is joking about executing them] Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people . . . The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity."

He is absolutely right, and I've never seen the nature of the State laid out so plainly.

August 24, 2010 at 2:34 PM  
Anonymous Rollory said...

Oh, also.

Benedict Arnold was, and remains, a HERO. This country would not exist without him. The attack on Quebec was exactly the sort of initiative-taking that could have paid off big and should have been exercised by many more leaders - and it was practically a coin toss that it failed at all - Valcour Island was the classic case of the right force in the right place at the right time having an effect far out of proportion to its actual strength, and it was his personal unofficial leadership that won the day at Saratoga.

For these incomparable services he was treated abominably by a set of politicians not much better than those we have today, and his turning his coat - and renewing his previous loyalty to the Crown - can and should be forgiven.

August 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Concerned American,
I have been reading your posts since I first stumbled across them.
I have found them in the most part to be enjoyable and informative.

Neither one of principals in this 'discourse' have covered themselves with glory in this exchange.

Things like this can tear at your liver. I know that.

I am one of those black hated bastards who does not come to the RTC, because I don't, in my heart, think that they will do the trick. And I don't want my picture out there until after the balloon goes up.
And when it does, my primary plan is to help some others keep our little corner of the world nailed down square when the MZBs are roaming.

However, having said that, I must say that I do have a tremendous amount of respect for you for doing it. For having the intestinal fortitude to stand up and be seen publicly for a hopeless, but noble cause.

There will be a good sized die-off before this is over. Nothing can stop that now.

to quote you "For me, I'll be away for a while figuring out why the eff I have wasted so much of my 'only-ever life', in Billy Beck's phrase, on an endeavor that is so clearly and utterly effing doomed."

It was not a waste sir. Most of those you touched, you will never see, and you may never hear of or from.

But we are none the less here.

-Amon Shadow Walker

Fading back out...

August 24, 2010 at 3:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

CA, Whatever you decide, thank you for what you do. I am one of the "lurkers" whose eyes are steadily opening wider as I realize how far I am behind in being prepared (I thought I was in better shape than I am). Your links and commentary are a goldmine for someone like me and it is appreciated. I am, as I suspect many are, the type to not say a lot - just observe my surroundings and pay attention. It is unfortunate when egos get involved but unavoidable. To be perfectly truthful, I am not looking for you, MVB, or Baugh to be my leader if SHTF but I can still appreciate your existence. I will lead my family and make common sense hard decisions as they come and trust only those that have already earned it - I suspect that is the case for many.

Some form of government is good and necessary in my opinion. Our form is a good one. I don't believe the Founders got it wrong. I believe they gave us the tools to fix the problems but we sat on the couch and watched the football game instead. We as a nation got fat, lazy and stupid over the course of a couple of hundred years, just as those who thirst for power began planning for us before the very ink was dry on the Declaration. I am as guilty as anyone of being complacent and believing there was a difference in the choices given. I hope I can do enough things right from this point forward so that I may still look my children in the eye when I am an old man and they begin to understand.

I am 100% certain that I could find, if I chose to, something to argue about with every single person on the face of the earth. Or, I can keep my mouth shut and listen for the nugget of wisdom that everyone stumbles over from time to time. Or better put, as my Granddaddy said, "Son you got two ears and one mouth - there is a reason for that". I can glean very good knowledge from you, MVB, Baugh, the posters here, Alvie, Gellar, Fox, MSNBC, Huffington - the point is that I think it is all important - even things I think are idiotic (MSNBC / Huff). I want the entire roadmap.

Personal opinion - I won't be getting cozy with anyone of the muslim "faith" (NOI). There is no evidence to convince me it is truly a religion of peace willing to coexist with others and all evidence is to the contrary. SPLC same thing, it has a different view of the world than I. If Mr. Baugh wants to associate it is his choice, If MBV thinks he shouldn't that's fine too. I am willing to coexist with NOI and SPLC as long as they don't "f" with me and mine or liberty in general but I have my doubts that will ever be possible.

I don't know if rallies, or broken glass for that matter, are exercises in futility. I have participated in neither. Maybe they help. What I am 100% certain of is that the ruling class is tapping on the nose of a figurative bomb and the mathematical equation to explain the reaction, once triggered, will not be a linear one.

I think this whole meltdown thing is kinda like Ten Bears and Josey Wales. Ultimately there will be a truce and mutual understanding, with a watchful eye to the horizon.

Anyway, your efforts have not been in vain and in many cases are appreciated by people you may or may not be aware of. I just wanted to say thank you.

Kevin

I will not post this at the other sites mentioned, DEFCON4 is bad enough.

August 24, 2010 at 3:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

CA, Whatever you decide, thank you for what you do. I am one of the "lurkers" whose eyes are steadily opening wider as I realize how far I am behind in being prepared (I thought I was in better shape than I am). Your links and commentary are a goldmine for someone like me and it is appreciated. I am, as I suspect many are, the type to not say a lot - just observe my surroundings and pay attention. It is unfortunate when egos get involved but unavoidable. To be perfectly truthful, I am not looking for you, MVB, or Baugh to be my leader if SHTF but I can still appreciate your existence. I will lead my family and make common sense hard decisions as they come and trust only those that have already earned it - I suspect that is the case for many.

Some form of government is good and necessary in my opinion. Our form is a good one. I don't believe the Founders got it wrong. I believe they gave us the tools to fix the problems but we sat on the couch and watched the football game instead. We as a nation got fat, lazy and stupid over the course of a couple of hundred years, just as those who thirst for power began planning for us before the very ink was dry on the Declaration. I am as guilty as anyone of being complacent and believing there was a difference in the choices given. I hope I can do enough things right from this point forward so that I may still look my children in the eye when I am an old man and they begin to understand.

I am 100% certain that I could find, if I chose to, something to argue about with every single person on the face of the earth. Or, I can keep my mouth shut and listen for the nugget of wisdom that everyone stumbles over from time to time. Or better put, as my Granddaddy said, "Son you got two ears and one mouth - there is a reason for that". I can glean very good knowledge from you, MVB, Baugh, the posters here, Alvie, Gellar, Fox, MSNBC, Huffington - the point is that I think it is all important - even things I think are idiotic (MSNBC / Huff). I want the entire roadmap.

Continued next post

Kevin

August 24, 2010 at 3:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Personal opinion - I won't be getting cozy with anyone of the muslim "faith" (NOI). There is no evidence to convince me it is truly a religion of peace willing to coexist with others and all evidence is to the contrary. SPLC same thing, it has a different view of the world than I. If Mr. Baugh wants to associate it is his choice, If MBV thinks he shouldn't that's fine too. I am willing to coexist with NOI and SPLC as long as they don't "f" with me and mine or liberty in general but I have my doubts that will ever be possible.

I don't know if rallies, or broken glass for that matter, are exercises in futility. I have participated in neither. Maybe they help. What I am 100% certain of is that the ruling class is tapping on the nose of a figurative bomb and the reaction, once triggered, will not be a lineal one.

I think this whole meltdown thing is kinda like Ten Bears and Josey Wales. Ultimately there will be a truce and mutual understanding, with a watchful eye to the horizon.

Anyway, your efforts have not been in vain and in many cases are appreciated by people you may or may not be aware of. I just wanted to say thank you.

Kevin

I will not post this at the other sites mentioned, DEFCON4 is bad enough.

August 24, 2010 at 3:37 PM  
Anonymous Defender said...

We saw all this in the '90s with Mark Koernke and the Michigan Militia and others being denounced as wackos, and some of their claims, like the one about secret stickers on the backs of highway signs to guide foreign troops, turned out to be... well, misinformed. But they DID predict much of what we have seen.
THEN, we watched those "America in Peril" videos with the shades down and the phones unplugged. NOW, here were are on the Internet.
There's reason for hope. We are enough, and we have enough, without unsavory "allies."
On the other hand, Sun Tzu was Chinese and in the service of an Emperor, yet we study his "The Art of War." (Which seems to me no more than "The Ancient Chinese Book of Common Sense," but...)
I have great respect for Mike Vanderboegh, AND Concerned American. I may not agree with either all the time, but that's called freedom. As David Codrea says, don't waste time arguing with the blog owner, start your own if you disagree to that extent.
Every day, I go to Sipsey Street, WRSA, The War on Guns and The Cliffs of Insanity. Good sources of information and analysis. And it's good to be reminded that I'm not alone.
I would hate to lose any of them.

August 24, 2010 at 5:05 PM  
Blogger J. Croft said...

"hope, faith and love" and a winning plan.

People who honestly think for themselves well, they're not going to agree like the est. 150,000,000 happily enslaved we're likely going to have to fight through before we can get to those that have led us to this predictament.

I'd rather find a way to get at them at where they're coming from but that's a struggle in and of itself.

Of course all of us get so frustrated flailing away at a beast that is so formidable that subconsciously we look for an enemy that we CAN reasonably take on. It's just not reasonable to take on a centur(ies)y old conspiracy in control of the biggest most powerful government in history. It IS reasonable tear apart each other due to perspective.

Take what you think works from whoever and try to not declare a blood feud on them for being merely contrary in the general direction of Freedom. I mean, even that choad Alex Jones he still comes up with some good points, some good exposes.

I jumped down on Dedicated Dad after he fired off a rant a few days back or so due to my making an appeal to help July4Patriot aka Charles Dyer. I didn't see his retraction or it wasn't posted up but whatever-he emailed and apologized. So I apologize back right now.

If we're in the same wood rotted schooner with a few rusty popguns trying to take down the USS Missouri we have to do a better job of patching things up. If you can't kiss and make up then at least acknowledge y'all have ROUGHLY the same goals.

It's only going to get harder from here.

August 24, 2010 at 7:42 PM  
Blogger johnnyreb said...

Has anyone considered the bad form Baugh exhibited using time MVB gave him to basically tell everyone at the RTC they were wasting their time?

Richard
III

August 24, 2010 at 8:32 PM  
Anonymous D.O.L. said...

We are completely and totally screwed. Of that, there is no doubt. At least Tom Baugh has no pretense about that.

As far as his courting of certain "extremist" groups is concerned, I suspect the man is up to a four-way PSYOP mindfuck between SF, NOI, SPLC, and ADL. The results are going to be interesting to watch.

As for the rest of you 3pers, oathkeepers, tea party patriots, et al. are concerned, realize that you are nothing more than a minority. You are the blacks at the back of the bus in 1950s Birmingham, with 150+ million of your fellow citizens ready to cheer when the cops bust your head open for getting "uppity".

If you can't get that simple concept straight, you will be of no use when the reset occurs.

Both Vanderbough, Baugh, and others are putting out some good information. Make use of it!

-DOL

August 24, 2010 at 8:49 PM  
Anonymous Mom said...

This is for both of you:

Baugh can go to hell, but you two...Snap the fuck out of it!

August 24, 2010 at 9:24 PM  
Anonymous Stan said...

Pete,

If at all possible I think you and Mike V. need to "hit the reset button" and try to restore your friendship and cooperation back to pre-Baugh.

August 24, 2010 at 9:59 PM  
Anonymous thedweeze said...

So, some third party comes in, stirs some sh*t up, and you and Mike are both at each other's throats and thinking about shutting down?

What the h*ll is wrong with the two of you?

If either of you thought that everyone was always going to agree with either of you, you shouldn't have chosen the internet as your medium.

You're upset? That's OK, nothing wrong with that. In fact, be the very best upset you can be, and sit with it for a few days.

Then, put it aside and get over it. You have important work to do, and it needs to get done. Nobody else, in case you haven't noticed, is doing it: you might not have asked for it, but you've got the duty.

Again, don't deny the upset. But don't hold onto to it either.

August 24, 2010 at 10:12 PM  
Anonymous Jimmy the Saint said...

Take a break and watch the movie 1776, which, though a musical comedy, actually contains a lot of the actual exchanges from the Continental Congress that debated the Declaration of Independence.

My personal favorite exchange --

"Hopkins: Ah, Ben! I want you to see some cards I'd gone and had printed up. Oughta save everybody here a lot of time and effort, considering the epidemic of bad disposition that's been going on around here lately. "Dear Sir, you are without any doubt, a rogue, a rascal, a villain, a thief, a scoundrel, and a mean, dirty, stinking, sniveling, sneaking, pimping, pocket-picking, thrice double-damned no-good son of a bitch." and you sign your name - what do you think?

Dr. Benjamin Franklin: I'll take a dozen, right now."

Things aren't much different now.

August 24, 2010 at 10:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How much energy was wasted on this neat little distraction?

Oh well, back to training, Baugh or no Baugh, Vanderboegh or no Vanderboegh...

August 25, 2010 at 12:02 AM  
Blogger ParaPacem said...

Well...
Since for some reason I have been on CA's "crap list" for a while ( I assume this is so, due to never having replies to the last three emails I sent to him ), I have no idea whether my post will be allowed. But what the heck, why not try one anyway?

The saddest thing about seeing both sides to such disagreements is being unable to help the parties to cease building walls which will, in the end, only encourage patriots to 'take sides'
I can see the desire to encourage people to read the words that others may offer - even such obvious adversarial writings as those of Ho Chi Minh, Stalin, Marx / Lenin. The rationale behind this, however, assumes that all of those in one's audience, who are being thus encouraged, are of sufficiently formed principles and rock solid foundations, so that they do not drift into whatever error the writer may also espouse.

For exactly the same reason, those who would vehemently admonish others to AVOID reading / hearing or associating with such people, are trying to watch out for the 'newbies', fresh recruits, fence-sitters, who may be easily swayed by the skilled delivery and smooth words of someone whose agenda my eventually prove totally destructive - either by accident or by plan. An example, of course, would be a man whose smooth style, fiery delivery, strong projection of personal charisma, and 'people skills' persuaded the masses to follow him blindly. That man could have been Adolph Hitler... or Barack Hussein Obama. Does anyone doubt that their charisms influenced the open-minded and the naive to follow blindly into whatever Hell they envisioned?

Thus it is that two men with opposing views yet one common goal.

The violent Sam Peckinpah film, "The Wild Bunch" opened with a chilling sequence which I never forget. A group of cruel, demented young children, apparently budding sociopaths, had grabbed two scorpions and set them facing one another, knowing that they would engage in mortal combat. They placed them on a fire-ant hill, so that the ants would attack both scorpions. Then they used fuel and matches to set fire to the anthill, so that the scorpions and ants all died.
For some reason, the nihilistic ghost of that scene is haunting me these last two days.

August 25, 2010 at 12:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I actually found this blog through SSI. I've always found more meat here than there.

I never have liked the fact that Mike slams everyone who doesn't agree with him 100%. My opinion of him really took a turn for the worse during "The Window War"

How many windows did you break Mike? It's tough to respect someone who wants you to go into harms way, but won't do it himself.

Keep up the good work

August 25, 2010 at 12:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I appreciate your blog very much and would hate to see you shut it down. You have provided a lot of education free of charge, links, introductions to people like Denninger, and I owe you bigtime.

Everything I just said about you also goes for Mike VDB.

I have not read Starving the Monkeys, but I've read and watched enough of Tom Baugh to appreciate the points he has brought out. That said, in seriously considering NoI and SF as even temporary allies, in my opinion, he is either insane, stupid, naive, or revealing himself as a plant. There is no excuse for it.

The above criticism is aimed at him, not at you, but I am disappointed you do not see that alliance as ridiculous and unacceptable, as I do and apparently Mike VDB does. You have made an error in judgment.

Loyal and appreciative reader

August 25, 2010 at 1:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Now that everyone has said their peace, let's get back to work.

August 25, 2010 at 1:22 AM  
Anonymous Defender said...

I say, everyone speak his truth, and everyone else listen. Take what works, leave the rest. Lead by example (not just those whom we recognize as leaders, but EVERYONE be leadership material), and the racists and haters -- some of them, anyway -- MAY set aside their hatred and get behind US without us approaching THEM. I've been told I'm naive sometimes when it comes to politics, but this seems like the way to gain allies who are worth having. And if we don't, there are more than enough of us anyway.

August 25, 2010 at 1:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Imagine what laws SSI and Stormfront would pass if they could: One would legally discriminate against blacks, the other against Mexicans and Muslims. Both would put severely restrict foreign trade, immigration, and foreign labor. Wow, big difference. Baugh has accurately observed that Christian Identity militia, Christian Patriot militia, and Klan all hold similar values, and he is recruiting them as equals.

This unwelcome analysis is causing Mike and Bob to come unglued, because they want to believe they hold a special, honorable viewpoint. However, the facts don't support this claim, so they're screaming and throwing dung like monkeys at the zoo to try to distract readers. It's not working. Thank goodness.

I believe Baugh knows there are only two sides in this battle, libertarians vs. government supporters. The unpleasant facts of this situation are that governments and constitutions work poorly, there are 250 million big government supporters in the US, and 90% of adults in Germany voted for Hitler when the government ran out of money. Majority voting however seasoned with representatives is not going to a good place.

Baugh also wants to make money and book speaking engagements and probably get invited to Oprah and Leno. I get that. Lots of Americans are vigorous self-promoters. Can we move on?

The change that needs to happen is for Mike and Bob to lose their racism about skin and passport color, and become libertarians. They both know enough history to skip right over the minimal republic fantasy, and go directly to anarchist. They will both have to relinquish the demand to tell other people how to live their lives.

August 25, 2010 at 2:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.

-Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

August 25, 2010 at 3:07 AM  
Blogger Concerned American said...

ParaPacem:

I have no crap list, and you are not being deliberately snubbed.

Send what you have sent to bloviate@hotmail.com and I will reply.

K?

August 25, 2010 at 3:42 AM  
Blogger J. Croft said...

Does the shooting have to start before the concept of Patriot Unity gets through? Yes I address that at everyone, and I'm holding up a mirror to myself as well...

August 25, 2010 at 4:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous @ 2:18 re Mike and Bob…….

“They will both have to relinquish the demand to tell other people how to live their lives.”

I think desire may be more fitting than demand in this statement. But that hits the nail square on the head.

What they claim to be fighting against they are gathering all the ingredients (a collective of would be rulers and enforcers) to create a mirror image of the same.

This “kerfuffle” is proving out the words that Baugh wrote in his book about how our society has been programmed to attack and destroy the individual.

This war will only be perpetuated to infinity by these collectivist attacks on the individual. And tyranny will thrive.

Sad really. But truly what the majority desires.

WWalker

August 25, 2010 at 4:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You only sleep with flea's when you are going to gather intel and/or take them down.

August 26, 2010 at 3:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What they claim to be fighting against they are gathering all the ingredients (a collective of would be rulers and enforcers) to create a mirror image of the same."

That's why I asked a long time ago what SSI's proposed foreign policy was. The answer I received was 'first help win this thing, then we'll have time and opportunity to talk about that'. I interpreted this to mean "shut up Aladdin, and hand up the lamp". Call me naive, but I don't think they are really conscious of what political structure they are reproducing, or what purposes it will be used for after they become unpersons.

August 26, 2010 at 5:50 AM  
Anonymous Jayne Cobb said...

Gorram there's a fight going on among friends in here.I think i'm gonna leave, lock the door, and come back in a few weeks. Hopefully y'all have come to your senses by then.

August 29, 2010 at 12:27 AM  

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