Some Important Thoughts
Start with this piece at John Venlet's place; read the links and the comments.
Over to Billy Beck and one of his comments in that string.
Back to Venlet, citing again Beck, who closes magnificently.
For thoughtful comment here or at John's place:
Is there a politically-significant enough American conscience remaining in either the populace as a whole, or more importantly, the ruling elites, such that the tactic of massive civil disobedience could be used successfully to achieve the strategic objective of restoring long-term individual freedom on the North American continent?
For either "yes" or "no" answers, explain why you say so.
For "yes" answers, also explain how to initiate such a tactic.
posted by Concerned American | 5:21 AM
23 Comments:
No. The ruling elites will not execute civil disobedienc out of self-interest, and the populace will not out of apathy. What WILL happen is something will make either group start shoving, and it will escalate to violence. Whichever group kills enough of the other wins. What you wind up with afterwards, no one can say, and no one will say it will be pretty
When this country was founded, the majority of the population valued individual freedom, and was determined to protect it.
That is no longer the case. The majority doesn't give a damn, and the largest cohesive minority is bound and determined to sell themselves into slavery.
I have grave doubts about our ability to turn things around through the electoral process, and graver doubts about the outcome of any armed rebellion.
The core of the problem is that far too few people understand that having their own freedom means granting others their freedom, and that their earnest desire for something does not impose on others an obligation for it to be provided for them.
Given current circumstances, our "war" has to be educational. We have to teach people of the importance of the principles this country was founded on. It's less dramatic than taking up arms, but it's necessary.
My comment there:
I’ve watched all this coming since I was a boy, and now I’m a grizzled old fart.
The sort of armed revolt I see the threepers fantasize about - that I fantasized about when I was young - won’t work here. It has only ever worked against regimes like the Czars or the French monarchy, who were already so hollow and rotten that only the appearance remained. And even they had so hardened their enemies against them that by the time they noticed they were in trouble they faced a mighty foe.
Sorry guys - we are not a mighty foe. We are not bringing this or any other regime down with force of arms.
Massive civil disobedience? I see this as a more plausible approach, because for all our beloved hyperbole Mordor-by-the-Potomac isn’t Moscow or Beijing. They don’t have the stomach for gulags. Yet. Massive civil disobedience could turn the state governments our way, and the state governments are the key to our release if release is possible.
I say plausible rather than possible because “Massive civil disobedience” requires massive numbers. Where are ours? Sigh - home watching football, or sitting in their cubicles at work wondering how they’re going to pay for Johnnie’s new shoes.
Face it, guys. Right now we’re in the “bunch of angry cranks sitting around the tavern” stage of the Third American Revolution. As far as I can tell we’ve been stuck there for the past forty years or so.
I do not know if such a conscience still exists in enough Americans to make a difference. I hope it does, but that's just me.
In my amateur opinion, however, just like we had the obligation to use the authorized mechanisms of the Republic to effect change so long as they were available and uncorrupted, so we also have the obligation to respect the principles of self-defense and not use deadly force on our fellows who are not immediate and present threats, unless and until the day comes that such action is the only thing standing between us and slavery or death. When that day comes, if it comes, we will no longer be fighting to restore the Republic, we'll be fighting for survival, and nobody knows what America will look like afterward.
There has to be a distinction between what's theoretically possible and what's actually organizable and likely to happen.
Sure, if enough people, unified in purpose and synchronized in action, engaged in massive civil disobedience, things would have to change. Now, by enough, I mean a solid majority-plus of enfranchised American citizens. But what would it take to unify and motivate that critical mass?
It occurs to me that the critical mass necessary for successful civil disobedience could probably just as easily take over the government by electing their own candidates - again, assuming so many could reach consensus. That just seems unlikely to happen.
Unless, maybe, the III folks or some other resistance group is successful in provoking the Powers That Be into committing such an egregious, visible, un-"spinnable" offense against Main Street USA that you see a turn of sentiment like what happened after 9/11. Even then it'd be a toss-up as to whether enough people could agree on a course of action to accomplish anything by civil means.
We're pretty much screwed, aren't we?
That's a tough one to answer...
...Is there a politically-significant enough American conscience remaining ... that the tactic of massive civil disobedience could be used successfully to achieve the strategic objective of restoring long-term individual freedom on the North American continent?
For either "yes" or "no" answers, explain why you say so.
No - there's not NEAR enough remaining. Most people I know - those who blow hard about the out-of-control federal Leviathan - wouldn't even go to DC for the anti-health-care protests, much less the RTC rally.
Why?
In sum, they don't want their face (and hence all other info on themselves thanks to facial-recognition software) in some bureaucrat's database.
I can't see how any sane person would expect them to actually take arms...
DD
If / when my own example of civil disobedience manifests, it will be accompanied by a loud noise and a high speed flight of lead wrapped in copper; the immediate effect of said demonstration will be the termination of a minion of tyranny.
There is enough people who are awake and aware and capable-if we can get our collective shit together and start withdrawing our support for the beast(paying taxes, being registered in their control mechanisms, obeying their laws)and find a way to be SUCCESSFUL about it we can attract enough like minded people who aren't as awake, aware, capable that we can collapse their system.
What happens after that? Civil War. No the beast will NOT be holding back to grind out the war like they did in Vietnam, are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan-they will go all out to defeat us.
They can still lose, which is why they work overtime to infiltrate our movements our organizations. Recognize the infiltrators, the compromised groups and counter-subvert or discredit them.
The original source on the civil disobedience image is quite nice:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=regressive
First a question to "Concerned American". Why do you give a rat's behind about the North American continent ? You ask about restoring "individual freedom on the North American Continent".
This sounds like just the kind of question that would originate out of the illegal Kenyan's playbook....the North American Continent indeed.
Here's a list of your "North American Continent" countries....the United States, Canada, Mexico, Antigua and Barbuda, Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominica,
Dominican Republic, El Salvador,
Grenada,Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras,
Jamaica, Nicaragua, Panama,
St. Kitts & Nevis, St. Lucia,
St. Vincent & the Grenadines,
Trinidad, and Tobago.
As you can see there are many countries listed most people have never heard of.
So, before I answer your question....how's about you telling us readers why you give a damn about the above named countries other than the United States (assuming you're an American citizen) ?
Personally....I could give a damn about the North American continent. I truly only care about my country and my country alone....the United States of America !
DAN
III
There has to be a “tipping point” or critical mass to be successful. , both for those creating the civil disturbance and those governing. IF the disturbance is widespread but limited in scope in each location - it will be easily defeated and give “legitimacy”, “cause” and “reason” to further erode individual freedoms “on behalf of the rest”, for “security and safety”, etc. More invasion of privacy, more rules controlling assembly (such as those secret laws established by Toronto during G20 meetings). Thus less oppoertunity for another attempt later. Similarly if the disturbances are NOT widespread but large enough to cause alarm to those in local power - it will still be quashed over time by importing additional resources as there will be plenty of surrounding areas not affected.
See current examples in Iran (green movement), Greece, Spain, even Ireland.
Only successful and 100% quiet (i.e. no violence) was Iceland - when the IMF/World Bank attempted to shove the Icelandic bad bank debts to the IMF/WB to the people - similar to what was done to us in the US with TARP. Except in Iceland - they went to the poles as I understand it, and pushed back hard. I believe they’ve still prevailed.
Too many people are addicted to a lifestyle that is in descendance. Prior comments mention to fear of elites and ruling class and their SWAT teams, cameras, etc - not unjustly. We have a Nat’l Security Dir (Jones) who advocates the rightful termination of US citizens WITHOUT DUE PROCESS because they’re on a list somewhere. The fear has justification.
Who becomes the first to step forward, and turning to see who follows, who then actually follows?
I believe the answer is YES - there are significant numbers, but the real question is it possible to have them react at a moment in time to create a large enough effect to halt an incredibly arrogant (and thus blind) elite class in their tracks, long enough, to drag enough others along to create the appearance of a critical mass.
The Three-Percenters in this case - are using voice and the pen (words) not sword. Such a critical mass would necessarily be met with an overly reactive force - violence which we see examples of regularly (dogs and children shot in pseudo military raids for non-violent criminals). What happens next is the Tiananmen Square moment - facing off the tanks.
I think both sides lose - no winners.
I believe the answer is YES - there are significant numbers, but the real question is it possible to have them react at a moment in time to create a large enough effect to halt an incredibly arrogant (and thus blind) elite class in their tracks, long enough, to drag enough others along to create the appearance of a critical mass.
The Three-Percenters in this case - are using voice and the pen (words) not sword. Such a critical mass would necessarily be met with an overly reactive force - violence which we see examples of regularly (dogs and children shot in pseudo military raids for non-violent criminals). What happens next is the Tiananmen Square moment - facing off the tanks.
I think both sides lose - no winners.
Pretty chesty there, Dan, me boy....
I chose the term "North American continent" to reflect the fact that there are many people in both Canada and Mexico who would be willing to fight and die to live under a minimal central government tasked primarily with defense of the restored United States of America.
I have many friends in CA who consider themselves "old-school Americans", and I can't help but believe that there are folks just like them in Mexico, who simply want to be left alone to live in peace.
My answer is YES with 168 grains of copper jaceted lead @2750 fps.
But then again thats not civil or is it? But then again it works for the ONLY ONES.
Dennis
III
Texas
Here's a reply from Concerned American to my earlier comments to him:
"Pretty chesty there, Dan, me boy....
I chose the term "North American continent" to reflect the fact that there are many people in both Canada and Mexico who would be willing to fight and die to live under a minimal central government tasked primarily with defense of the restored United States of America.
I have many friends in CA who consider themselves "old-school Americans", and I can't help but believe that there are folks just like them in Mexico, who simply want to be left alone to live in peace."
Here's my comments in response to the above:
Well, my "Concerned American"....seems to me you're nothing less than a neocon globalist. You chose not to speak in terms of the United States of America but rather in terms of those who believe in a "North American Union". Scoundrels in my mind.
These people, who you appear to be one of, want nothing less than open borders and the disintegration of my beloved country, the United States of America !
So, you feel I'm pretty chesty (whatever that means). Perhaps you should have wrote "pretty nationalistic". Eh....but then again you appear to be a globalist, a North American Union type. Perhaps I should have just nodded my head in agreement with you. God forbid I challenge you.
Oh....I have also noticed how many of your beloved "North Americans", i.e., Guatemalans, Nicaraguans, etc, but primarily Mexicans are leaving their country in droves and invading MINE ! Seems like none of them are willing to fight and die for a "minimal government" as you call it. I prefer to use the word FREEDOM !
Your "North Americans" just invade this country and feed at the public trough of an American government, funded by taxpayers, gone awry.
So, your thoughts that there are lots of Mexicans and Canadians willing to fight and die is nothing less than horse manure. You have no proof of any significant number of these North Americans you speak of, willing to fight for anything regarding freedom. You only spout rhetoric.
The Mexicans are leaving their country and not fighting except to be in the front of American welfare lines. The Canadians are staying put in their country as they happen to enjoy a fairly decent economy compared to the United States. They enjoy their highly taxed, socialist system of government.
Oh to answer your original query....my answer is a resounding NO ! Americans fail to respect their constitutional Republic and allow career politicians to rule and control every facet of their lives. Every American should vote in every election and they should vote to remove multi-term incumbents. They don't and they won't. They certainly won't fight and die....it will be the Three Percent as it has always been through the ages.
BTW....I'm not your boy.
DAN
III
Here's my comments in response to Concerned American @ July 2, 2010 3:21 AM:
Well, my "Concerned American"....seems to me you're nothing less than a neocon globalist. You chose not to speak in terms of the United States of America but rather in terms of those who believe in a "North American Union". Scoundrels in my mind.
These people, who you appear to be one of, want nothing less than open borders and the disintegration of my beloved country, the United States of America !
So, you feel I'm pretty chesty (whatever that means). Perhaps you should have wrote "pretty nationalistic". Eh....but then again you appear to be a globalist, a North American Union type. Perhaps I should have just nodded my head in agreement with you. God forbid I challenge you.
Oh....I have also noticed how many of your beloved "North Americans", i.e., Guatemalans, Nicaraguans, etc, but primarily Mexicans are leaving their country in droves and invading MINE ! Seems like none of them are willing to fight and die for a "minimal government" as you call it. I prefer to use the word FREEDOM !
Your "North Americans" just invade this country and feed at the public trough of an American government, funded by taxpayers, gone awry.
So, your thoughts that there are lots of Mexicans and Canadians willing to fight and die is nothing less than horse manure. You have no proof of any significant number of these North Americans you speak of, willing to fight for anything regarding freedom. You only spout rhetoric.
The Mexicans are leaving their country and not fighting except to be in the front of American welfare lines. The Canadians are staying put in their country as they happen to enjoy a fairly decent economy compared to the United States. They enjoy their highly taxed, socialist system of government.
Oh to answer your original query....my answer is a resounding NO ! Americans fail to respect their constitutional Republic and allow career politicians to rule and control every facet of their lives. Every American should vote in every election and they should vote to remove multi-term incumbents. They don't and they won't. They certainly won't fight and die....it will be the Three Percent as it has always been through the ages.
BTW....I'm not your boy.
DAN
III
Critical-mass-of-dumbass-locusts (CMODAL) means the endarkenment can't be stopped.
Arable land, beans, books, and bullets - In a resilient community is the only chance for pockets of civilization to ride out what is now inevitable.
My answer is yes, but barely. I think that 80% of the middle class will not give up pursuing the sin of Envy with Socialism until the economy is in such a shambles they start missing meals, or being crippled from what used to be easily treated medical problems like broken bones.
Why is this? Look in the mirror. The extreme libertarians can't even get the readers of this blog to give up constitutional socialism. Envy plus the urge to organize everyone behind a tribal leader has a huge emotional hold on you.
Dan me lad:
Sure hope you can fight as tough as you type.
You'll have your chance soon enough.
BTW, how's that voting thing working out for you?
If the people have not enough stone to redirect this democracy/republic then why are the powers that be so adiment to un arm us? The only reason this country floats on FREEDOM is because of the armed threat that PATRIOTS hold. The threat is double edged...For you STARWARS fans out there..."execute order 66" was a turning point and advantage for the dark side. I contend the "order" can be called by who is best prepared to execute it.
Concerned American wrote this in response to my last reply to him:
"Dan me lad:
Sure hope you can fight as tough as you type.
You'll have your chance soon enough.
BTW, how's that voting thing working out for you?"
Here's my latest response to the neocon Concerned American:
In true left-wing, neocon fashion you make no comments of value. Rather you choose to attack me for simply making statements. You tell me I'm writing "tough". You tell me you hope I can fight as tough as I type. Gee, does the truth hurt that much ? You should be more concerned about your beloved Mexicans, Canadians, and other North Americans fighting. Not me.
Now Concerned "North" American, at no time did I challenge you to a duel. At no time did I make reference to violence (like you have many times on this blog). At no time did I challenge you to a cockfight. Rather I made some pretty plain statements that you chose to ignore. Instead of addressing my comments with intelligence you just decided that in true lib/neocon fashion it's easier to attack the messenger than address the message. Right out of the Saul Alinsky playbook.
You're not much different than the Hannitys and O'Reillys masquerading as Constitutional Patriots. You're intelligent and well-written. But I wouldn't trust you as far as I could throw you.
I'd wish you a joyous celebration of America's Independence Day. However, you and your North Americans don't have such a celebration. So, in keeping with your North American patriotism, I'll just wish you a belated Cinco de Mayo !
DAN
III
Dan:
Not a neocon.
I am an American.
The values I will fight and die for are applicable to all humans, if they have the courage and the integrity to embrace same:
1) Individual freedom
2) Individual responsibility
3) Minimal national government to effect enumerated tasks such as national defense (which now includes space)
If we agree on such things, fine.
If not, fine.
The "fighting" comment was referring to the upcoming North American war games. Let's focus the energy on the real enemy, rather than keyboard fratricide.
Have you gone shooting yet this weekend?
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