Western Rifle Shooters Association

Do not give in to Evil, but proceed ever more boldly against it

Friday, July 17, 2009

Repost: US FM 44-8 Chapter 5: Active Air Defense Measures

As posted last February, here is some essential reading on defending the z axis, courtesy of Uncle Sugar.

Audentes fortuna iuvat -- especially as the transition from theory into practice continues.


Blogger OldTCS said...

Hmmm, let's see, should I fire at the Hind 24 with my little M16? LOL, priceless!
I have personally met some Afghans that might have a different opinion on that one.

July 17, 2009 at 5:13 PM  
Blogger Concerned American said...


You got a better idea on how to deal with the air threat we all are gonna be facing soon?

If so, put it up here.

If not, put a sock in it.

This sh*t is for real, dude. Snarking for folks who should know better is chicksh*t.

July 18, 2009 at 4:16 AM  
Blogger OldTCS said...

Yeah, I do have a better idea. In fact, anyone that is serious about this had better have a better idea.
I have read the chapter that was posted, and one thing you might want to take note of, is that it's geared toward gov't forces. Ones that have huge supply lines backing them up. Lots of ammo available.
Do you really think we should continuously unload full mags from small arms at Hind 24's, cruise missiles, jets, etc?
If the time ever comes that I have to face forces that include air, and my side is likely to be more like gorilla forces, I would go after them where they are vulnerable. Airfields, supplies, crew, etc. I would not waste my (probably scarce) ammo on targets that are not likely to be effected by it.
Faced with an airborne Hind 24, I would try to become very small, unless I had a 50 or better, and for some reason just couldn't wait for a better time.
Shooting 5.56mm at an armored Hind, is just saying 'here I am, shoot me first."
I've done this for a living, so you might want to put a sock in it, 'dude.'

July 18, 2009 at 1:21 PM  
Blogger Concerned American said...


That was useful.

And appreciated.

Let's assume that the air threat encountered is more soft-skinned than a Hind (as it will very likely be).

As an experienced fellow, are you saying small arms < .50BMG will be completely ineffective, especially when evasion (always the best course) is not available (e.g., you've already been spotted and shot at from the air)?

July 18, 2009 at 3:03 PM  
Blogger pdxr13 said...

HIND gunships were THE problem faced by Afghans in the Soviet occupation of 1979-1985.

"Charlie Wilson's War" (book, not movie) clearly describes the logistical and financial problems of delivering weapons that would reliably knock down this beastly chopper.

Afghan jihadi's died like flies against Soviet Special Forces in the early 1980's. This may have confused the Soviets into thinking that they could win/occupy/pacify in Afghanistan. Afghans don't have "many sons with many guns" for no reason.

An even more difficult problem is a weapon that will kill a HIND from the ground at a Hind maximum effective engagement distance. It's not a gun that can be moved by 3 mules and 3 men (although this can work if used close-in, like in a canyon with surprise), it's a high-tech one-shot shaped-charge on a rocket, aimed and launched by a reasonably trained soldier and his small unit. Pop-up, launch, duck.

Where, exactly, do high-tech anti-helicopter shoulder-launched rockets come from, if not the CIA? Not my basement factory.

Helicopter cav vs. insurgents in the mountain Western US doesn't sound like fun for either side.

Got Stingers?

July 18, 2009 at 10:35 PM  
Blogger pdxr13 said...

What an insurgent fighter must not do is attack the hardened tip of the spear. Modern gunships are super-bad and are designed to work fast against targets like you. Like RAH advice about atomic bomb defense "Don't be there when it goes off", don't pit your low-tech soft self against the pinnacle of modern mechanized warfare.

Positive advice: find the soft parts that make the Leviathan work. Target the BTU concentration points: fuel storage, fuel transport, fuel manufacture. Target supplies that are needed by personnel: food, water, shelter, electricity,transport, supply warehouses, entertainment.

When the situation sucks for long enough, with no positive pay-off left, they will go home.

Big/Hi-tech army has to decisively win to win, insurgents just have to survive to eventually win. It's a game of will.


July 18, 2009 at 10:50 PM  
Blogger OldTCS said...

You pretty much covered it. The atomic bomb defense remark brought a smile, forgot where I first heard that :)

Yes, typical small arms < .50BMG will be completely ineffective, at least deployed like shown in Ch 5.
There is a good use for them as shown in Afghanistan: BAIT
One thing that worked was baiting them down into the valleys, then firing down on them from higher positions with 12.7mm, etc.
That game only lasts so long, though.
As for air already having spotted you, that doesn't mean they can't lose you and have to re-aquire. In fact, that's the norm. If I was alive after the first pass, I'd be trying to hide my thermal ASAP.
Caught in the open? Well, as my favorite surfer girl would say: sucks to be you.

July 19, 2009 at 9:20 PM  

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