Please read and consider WWWalker's thoughts in his comments, reprinted verbatim below, to this post:
So let me see if I understand yet.
There are links all over the “freedom” blogisphere, to include this blog just yeasterday o, to this story..................
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=180761
Hear we read:
“On Saturday night, when Mother Jones staffers tweeted a report that riot police might soon sweep demonstrators out of the Wisconsin capitol building—something that didn’t end up happening—one Twitter user sent out a chilling public response: “Use live ammunition.”
From my own Twitter account, I confronted the user, JCCentCom. He tweeted back that the demonstrators were “political enemies” and “thugs” who were “physically threatening legally elected officials.” In response to such behavior, he said, “You’re damned right I advocate deadly force.” He later called me a “typical leftist,” adding, “liberals hate police.”
Only later did we realize that JCCentCom was a deputy attorney general for the state of Indiana.”
“We saw exactly that in Egypt.
It's illegal for a private citizen in Egypt to own a rifle. Yet there were people being sniped - shot in the head from a long distance - during the protests. Who was doing the shooting? Obviously it was government goons as they were the only ones with the requisite weapons.
Now we see advocacy of doing exactly the same thing right here in America.
An apparent government employee - a Deputy Attorney General no less - appears to have publicly advocated firing on protesters.”
Now correct me if I am wrong. Do I understand correctly that this blog and others (note entry for today at top of page titled, Quote of the Week) are advocating for individuals to continue to openly take to the streets, with or without UNloaded weapons, without cover, and make themselves a target during a protest? Even after a government employee in a somewhat powerful position advocated for the murder of people who participate in protests? After evidence has shown the willingness of other governments to murder protesters? (Or did this not actually happen in Egypt? Maybe that is not evidence, but there is this type of evidence in history.)
Have we learned nothing about government?
Are we truly so lost and unthinking that we become more willing, the worse things get, to openly, without purpose put ourselves in danger of being shot in cold blood for the opportunity to shout and “peacefully” shake empty fists, or empty gun, at those who are slowing killing us over time?
Is it not time for a new strategy?
And NO.........to all who can’t think past “we got two choices”
1) “work within the system to change the system.”
2) “or shoot the bastards.”
“and we can’t do that, we must hold the moral high ground and join with the criminals in the system and work with them, we can do it, we can shout them into morality, or scare them straight peacefully”
NO, number two is not what I am advocating. But number one sure ain’t it either.
What I am advocating is.....................................the productive withholding, righteously , peacefully what does not rightfully belong to the parasite class, looters, moochers, robbers, whatever you choose to call them. And supporting, and protecting one an others inalienable right to do so.
Yes, it will get ugly. It’s going to anyway.
THEY will come with guns, as they are doing and have been doing.
The larger numbers of, and more that the productive class withhold, the more desperate they will become. They will escalate and bring the battle to the productive. They will shed their thin veil of legitimacy in their desperate fight to hold on to their life source, what they perceive as their rightfully owned slaves.
The productive (as they do now, but with little or no support from their fellow equals) will have the right, the moral responsibility to defend themselves and their fellow producers from attack by the murderers and thieves.
This is the righteous and moral strategy that I advocate and believe has any chance of success in the battle for individual rights, and freedom.
Two quick notes:
1) Apologies in advance for sporadic moderation of comments, as I have other fish in the pan this weekend; and
2) Be thoughtful and civil in your replies, if possible.
As a boss of mine used to say, "More light, less heat."
That's a lot to chew on...
ReplyDeletePete, I know what you are saying and I agree. Problem is, it's all going to boil down to number 2 in the end. Sucks.
ReplyDeleteJust what do you think will happen when you "withhold", commenter, as you suggest?
ReplyDeleteYou said: "The productive (as they do now, but with little or no support from their fellow equals) will have the right, the moral responsibility to defend themselves and their fellow producers from attack by the murderers and thieves."
Really? See how much of a target you become when you defend yourself from the IRS agents, with their shortened scatter-guns. Oh wait. You didn't mean those thieves... See how morally justified you are when you defend yourself against the ATF for having a weapon a fraction of an inch too short. Oh wait... you didn't mean those murderers.
You will be crushed, and the enemy will do it legally and in the open.
If I am shot in public, illegally, it will prove my point.
If I am shot resisting arrest for "withholding", it will prove theirs.
Which ones did you mean? The thieves right now threatening murder over their stranglehold on states' finances?
Oh. No? Not them? Then who?
You propose the same dead and ineffective strategy that has gotten us where we are today. Don't raise hell. Don't start static. Don't make yourself a target. Be nice. Obey all laws.
Yeah. Nice. Good luck with what has failed for decades.
We propose a more...Sons-of-Liberty-esque approach.
To speak in hyperbole, an infantryman exposes himself to enemy fire every time he makes a shot. If you stay buried in a trench, waiting to make a "safe" shot, you will not be able to hurt the enemy until his bayonet is in your chest. This is hyperbole.
Those gents exposing themselves are brave and doing the right thing. You stay home, waiting for some "thieves and murderers" to bust down you or your neighbor's door.
Others choose to meet them before they are in the front yard.
To each his own, I guess. Just don't question the intelligence or wisdom of those willing to take on risks for their cause. They are the true believers.
You also said:
"Are we truly so lost and unthinking that we become more willing, the worse things get, to openly, without purpose put ourselves in danger of being shot in cold blood for the opportunity to shout and “peacefully” shake empty fists, or empty gun, at those who are slowing killing us over time?"
Without purpose? Without purpose?
Come on. Are the leftists marching "without purpose"? I want to argue this point with you, but the fact that you said "without purpose" tells me you just don't get it. Tell me, were the first waves at Normandy "without purpose" as they were mowed down? Should those soldiers have sat on their assault craft, waiting for the Germans to swim out and attack?
And, don't be so positive that everyone who shakes an "empty fist" or an "empty gun" is...well...without means of resistance.
Resist.
AP
A long read, but nothing in there I haven't seen before since doing these open carry rallies.
ReplyDeleteI prefer the simplicity, specificity, and mouth-money-colocation of the armed gathering:
"Be at X location at X time with X equipment."
I'd sure love to see RTC critics like this one offer alternative courses of action in the format, "be here at X location, at X time, with X equipment."
"Using morally justified self-defense when they come for us with guns" is NOT specific enough, nor even in the format of an actionable plan.
That's the best thing to do when you finally realize there is a disgusting, bloated leech sucking your lifeblood.
ReplyDeleteTake it off your skin.
First, CA, I’m honored...................................I think.
ReplyDeleteHaving only scanned some of the lengthy replies, I get a feeling that the environment is a little hostile. To be expected.
The IRS, FBI..........and all the rest of the alphabet soup agencies, to include local law enFORCEment, are the very thieves and murderers that I refer to.
The points that folks seem to fail to firmly grasp are these.
1) Each and every human being is born with, endowed by his creator, certain unalienable rights.
To name a few:
a) Life. The right to self preservation. The right to defend ones self against aggressors with whatever means one chooses.
b) Liberty. The right to be free. To not be a slave to another person, persons, or government.
c)Property. The right to keep what one has rightfully earned, worked for, sacrificed ones own time, energy, and life to honestly acquire. Such as money, land or food.
2) There is a large majority of unproductive people in this country who do not respect these and other basic rights.
3) This majority would rather violate a productive persons right to liberty,( make them their slave), violate that productive persons right to property (buy forcefully taking, money, property, food, or whatever they feel they need to subsist,) rather than becoming productive and self sufficient.
4) Government (comprised wholly of persons form this unproductive majority). (Government creates absolutely NOthing, unless you want to count the three D’s (death, destruction, and debt) none of which are productive.) is the weapon that is used to violate these basic rights under a thin veil of legitimacy.
Example
When the IRS comes with their guns to violate a productive persons right to property (money honestly earned), what is the reaction from the majority of society?
It is overwhelmingly that the IRS is morally justified in violating that persons property rights...........Because................. now this is very important.........................................
Because.........1) that person who did not pay their fair share of taxes from the money that they gave part of their life to earn, was cheating society out of some kind of essential services that those monies would have allowed the government to provide.
And................2) (if they don’t have the mind to think up such a perversion,) it is good enough to just say........well it’s the law.
Does any of this morally justify what the IRS does?
No.
Does the person who’s property rights have been violated have a moral justification to defend himself against this theft of his property.
Yes.
Even though, at this point it is not prudent to do so as recent history proves........................now again this is important..............
The majority of his fellow producers not to mention the unproductive, agree with one of the two mindless justifications that I just mentioned
.
(For more insight, go read my replies to TL Davis’ A Reason to Fight blog and comments. I respond to his belief that his tax dollars are well spent on certain government “services”, and his willingness to voluntarily fund government to this end.) Or not.
We could go into endless examples to demonstrate the countless ways that government, comprised of some of the worst parasites that society has to offer, is used by the non government parasite class to violate numerous natural rights.
When a law enFORCEment “official” shoots a citizen what is the initial reaction of the majority of society?
Well they must have deserved it, right?
When the government seizes a citizens home, car, land, childern, whatever.......what is the initial reaction of the majority of society?
Well they must be some sort of scum bag drug dealer, or other degenerate criminal type, right?
Point is that when government violates rights, murders and steals, the majority of society is ready to throw there fellow man to the wolves.
WWalker
In my wanderings around the “patriot” community, online and off, I find the mind set to be as I described above.
ReplyDeleteThat the majority still believe...............
In working within the system to change the system.
In continuing to fund the system. Or at lest avoid any real talk of truly defunding the system.
In restoring a government that will not be comprised of unproductive parasites, or quickly degrade into an violent offender of natural rights under the thin veil of legitimacy they purport to call “law”.
That there is no other way to change things.................Again, this is an important point............Because it would be immoral to initiate violence to effect change.
“immoral to initiate violence to effect change”
This is true! Though one “patriot” will berate me for being a pacifist, but if I don’t make it crystal clear that I am not advocating violence another “patriot” will berate me for insinuating that violence is the answer.
So what does the majority advocate doing? Playing politics. Some seem to hope that playing politics will piss the other side off bad enough that their enemy will take the first shot, therefor “giving up the moral high ground,” yet they get the violence they desire.
I’m saying that playing politics is a losing game. It has always and will always end badly for all involved, as it leads to the perpetual pendulum swing of one group using government against the other and visa versa.
Exercising your right to protest them in the streets and playing politics, while you continue to feed and fund them is a losing strategy, always has been always will.
If you want to be shot in cold blood on a public street for your right to protest, just keep playing politics, government will sooner or later oblige you. It is your right, morally I support you, but have no intention to join you.
My life, liberty, property, and family are worth dying for.
My rights to vote, petition and protest are worth shit. That is the game that caused me to be born into slavery to a bunch of government and non-government looters and parasites.
If you haven’t figured it out. I am talking, starving the monkeys 101.
We have no moral duty to continue to feed, shelter and cloth able body humans who simply chose not to do it for themselves.
I don’t expect to many people to agree with anything I say.
Just don’t expect to guilt me into putting myself into harms way for your right to play politics.
And lastly................................
Won’t change a thing but.....................Yes, all life lost in war is an absolute, disgraceful, inexcusable, WAIST!!!!!!!!!!
War is a racket!
(read the book with that title)
Or not.
WWalker
Now to be blunt.
ReplyDeleteIf I don’t write Uncle Sugar a check for a yet undetermined amount above and beyond the thousands I already payed in quarterly taxes, here shortly...................................
How many “constitutionalist”, “patriots”, “freedom fighters”, will take to the streets with guns or otherwise in defense of my property rights........................................
And how many will find some justification in their mind, for the government to take my liberty or life?
But it’s the law................I know.
The law is made by non-producers.
As CA would say................
"Do you understand yet?"
WWalker
P.S. CA, thank you for the oppertunity.
Hmm, I wonder what other sort of self-defense there is, besides morally justified!
ReplyDeleteAP and Daniel, you guys make great points, but so did the commenter. Those waves at Normandy did have a purpose, and it was a purpose they believed achievable. As it happened, they were right.
Unachievable goals are never rational. To me, the commenter was saying that nobody's going to overpower this monster, but perhaps it can be choked nonetheless. That may be debatable, but it's not crazy.
Artic Patriot writes: "Just what do you think will happen when you "withhold", commenter, as you suggest?"
ReplyDeleteIf you want to exercise your freedom under the thieves noses, you don't start by standing in the town square holding an "I WILL NEVER PAY TAXES AGAIN / KICK ME" sign.
daniel writes: "I'd sure love to see RTC critics like this one offer alternative courses of action in the format, "be here at X location, at X time, with X equipment.""
1. Take your life savings out of the bank, stocks, and bonds, and put it into gold coins buried on your property. You lost 20% of the purchasing power of your dollars with Quantitative Easing 2 in November 2010. Why lose another 20% to QE3 in 2011, and what about QE 4, 5, 6? Not a thing illegal in this.
2. Wipe Windows, Learn Linux. Start using GNU Privacy Guard and Enigmail for Thunderbird and TOR. Not a thing illegal in this.
3. Start your own home research project on making biodiesel from waste fats in your area. Use inexpensive off-road farm diesel as an ingredient in your recipe. Perhaps your research will discover that the dye from the off-road diesel gets filtered out or bleached away or left behind in the still in one of your processing steps? "Legal" is whatever the cops allow you to do. Making biodiesel is legal if you do it in personal quantities only and don't sell it. Those fryer-oil cars are identified with biodiesel bumper stickers, but none of them get pulled over and hassled about not paying the road taxes on their homemade fuel. When your statist friends call you on it, act indignant because saving the planet from offshore drilling is much more important than those regulations that are really only for big greedy oil companies.
AP: "You propose the same dead and ineffective strategy that has gotten us where we are today. Don't raise hell. Don't start static. Don't make yourself a target. Be nice. Obey all laws."
No, that is NOT the strategy WW Walker is proposing. He is NOT proposing: "Obey all laws.". AP, why do you mis-read his plain words?
Don't underestimate that old guy who runs a push-mower over his lawn twice a week. He could be this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQRpAxGVg4M
ReplyDeleteor, she could be a nurse from WWII/Korea/VietNam/ColdWar.
or, an AT&T telephone mechanic who knows how to build and run a 1940's-style Local Office out of a basement, and has all the gear tucked away. Wired land lines and private buried networks will be all the rage when keying a radio gets you triangulated in seconds, and a cellular is tapped/logged/voiceID'd instantly.
Don't ask them to run far or carry a ruck like a 19 year old. Ask them to do what they can, and they will. Don't wait until they are gone.
Cheers.
The comment and the recent activity in my AO (Atlanta) has gotten me off the fence. The comment is from someone who cannot move past the concept of a siege. I am all for removing yourself from the grid so to speak, but unless you do withdraw from the "system" completely then you are still feeding the beast.
ReplyDeleteWithdrawing means no taxable income, no FICA contributions, no property taxes, no voting registration, no use of any government services. If you pack your shit and head for the mountains then you might get to this level otherwise attempting to maintain your current position while attempting to withdraw from these conditions gets you shot by ninjas while cornered in your closet at 0300.
I do not believe that the strategy of holding up in the compound under siege by said ninjas waiting for a Patriot Cavalry to arrive has proven to be very effective. I have previously been against simple rallies in the square because I felt that there was very little acheived by them. If no one counter protests the MSM does not cover them and the result is wasted effort. Since the current situation has altered that calculus to place us in the counter position then we have the opportunity to confront the thugs head to head. I am not advocating that we intentionally pick a fight but we should hit the street and not back down from one.
I have missed the last two protests in ATL due to prior commitments but I am going to make a concerted effort to make the next one. Rifle on my sholder and mags in the bag.
Left my sig off the last post.
ReplyDeleteGrenadier1
You are on the right track we need to withhold our support of everything evil. Quit paying income tax, quit supporting China Mart and the Chinese, quit tithing to churches that support the new world order and socialism. Too tough you say? Well Paul did not use that cop out with the Romans and neither should we.
ReplyDeleteGoing along to get along grantees us choice number #2 with 100% certainly as tyrants have never listened to reason. Force is the ONLY thing they understand weather it be economic or physical.