That pic is of the trainers from Magpul. They've advocated, in their DVDs, squaring up and engaging threats, even at distances of just a few yards. That seems detrimental to one's health, doesn't it?
Shooting while moving forward/back is a very important skill, but not a good tactic in a firefight. So, also practice moving side to side while shooting.
"Movement in combat environment shouldn't be looked at as transition between stable stationary positions." - Sonny Puzikas, "Beyond the Firearm" DVD.
I'll disagree slightly and say that movement shouldn't just be looked at as transitions between stable stationary positions. Getting out of the way of incoming fire is considerably more important than returning fire as fast as possible. You have a better chance of surviving, even if you don't have a gun, by not getting shot, then by staying stationary and returning fire. Some kind of method of getting off the X is probably a good idea.
I think most people (or rather, the few who actually do it) who use their tools may be radically underestimating lethality on the two-way high-capacity range.
I am fond of the "run squealing like a girl to where they can't shoot you" tactic myself. That is second only to "shoot them from cover as they sleep or shit" two-step.
I also think you will see less "squaring to the target" once a whole bunch of platewearers are gutshot in the umbilicus with Hornady VMax 60 grainers or CMP Greek HXP 150 FMJ.
Just sayin'....
Thanks for your comment. Lateral motion is essential, seems to me.
I see lots of FreeFor-leaning folks at ranges, popping off round after round from the bench. One wonders if indeed running and gunning is a possibility for some.
Now, bench shooting is fine, but we ALL can't be "snipers". Zero your weapon, and GET OFF THE BENCH! Move. Shoot from less than optimum conditions. Combine sprints with shooting.
CA- Do you shoot 60 grain V-Max bullets? Do you like them? I've been loading 68 grain HPBTs, but I'd be interested in trying the V-Max bullets as well.
I figure a little experimenting can't hurt, considering the EPA was gracious enough to allow us to continue to use conventional bullets...
;-)
I agree with the comments on squaring up. The Magpul guys have some techniques of value, IMO. I have gained a lot by adjusting my support hand further forward, for example.
+1 on the lateral motion. Get off the "X". Gabe Suarez has valuable techniques and information on this. I hope to attend a class or two of his someday.
I live in South Texas and myself and a couple of friends do a little I.D.P.A., In the summer time it gets REALLY HOT, 105 degrees last Wednesday. We try to have a 3 gun shoot (Rifle/Carbine, Shotgun, Pistol)at least quarterly,quite fun if a little expensive. We also have a meet each Thursday. The courses can get quite intensive sometimes shooting from sitting (as in a car)to standing and moving to different positions while using cover, firearm and magazine changes all done against a combination of points and time and other competitors.
Most of us are in our 40´s and 50´s but in fairly good shape for a bunch of old coots and would take most younger men quite by surprise.
I recommend I.D.P.A. to anyone that wants to practice so called real world scenarios. You can use scenarios from I.D.P.A. and news articles(we often MAKE UP our own twisted scenarios).Practicing with the element of stress is why I started with I.D.P.A.and my skill with firearms HAS improved drastically and I have NO regrets about doing so. Shooting from the bench or tree stand is one thing but shooting while moving with the stress of completion is another.
Dennis III Texas
P.S. Justin, I use 168gr.V-Max in a Savage mod.10 FLP in.308 Win. they are the most consistent bullet I´ve found for THIS RIFLE so far. Please note V-Max bullets are not recommended for big game but use common sense and your own judgment about who er what you intend to shoot with the bullet that you will PLAN to use.
Force on Force is to IDPA as MMA is to Point-Based martial arts. IDPA is fairly useful, but it shouldn't be the only thing one does to train for an actual gunfight. FoF does a much better job of mimicking real-world (gun)fights.
Force on Force, FoF, is the use of airsoft, paintball, or simunitions to simulate as closely as possible an actual (gun)fight. This type of training actually involves at least two people fighting each other. This is done by either doing scenarios, such as one opponent approaching another and asking for directions with the intent of actually mugging or assaulting; or by doing skills training, such as simply starting a fight with some kind of cue and working it for only a few seconds (to prevent it getting out of control and becoming a game.)
Did a youtube search for Force on Force, and this one was the first one to come up. Looks like it's a highlight from a training DVD by Gabe Suarez.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcPYGfMAujo
Force on Force is the gun training world's equivalent to sparring in martial arts.
Also, Dog Brothers production featuring Gabe Suarez, Die Less Often is really great to show why all pistoleros should have some good knowledge of hand-to-hand and defense against knives, which are much more dangerous at close-range.
Read and do, from GardenSERF.
That pic is of the trainers from Magpul. They've advocated, in their DVDs, squaring up and engaging threats, even at distances of just a few yards. That seems detrimental to one's health, doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteShooting while moving forward/back is a very important skill, but not a good tactic in a firefight. So, also practice moving side to side while shooting.
"Movement in combat environment shouldn't be looked at as transition between stable stationary positions." - Sonny Puzikas, "Beyond the Firearm" DVD.
I'll disagree slightly and say that movement shouldn't just be looked at as transitions between stable stationary positions. Getting out of the way of incoming fire is considerably more important than returning fire as fast as possible. You have a better chance of surviving, even if you don't have a gun, by not getting shot, then by staying stationary and returning fire. Some kind of method of getting off the X is probably a good idea.
I think most people (or rather, the few who actually do it) who use their tools may be radically underestimating lethality on the two-way high-capacity range.
ReplyDeleteI am fond of the "run squealing like a girl to where they can't shoot you" tactic myself. That is second only to "shoot them from cover as they sleep or shit" two-step.
I also think you will see less "squaring to the target" once a whole bunch of platewearers are gutshot in the umbilicus with Hornady VMax 60 grainers or CMP Greek HXP 150 FMJ.
Just sayin'....
Thanks for your comment. Lateral motion is essential, seems to me.
We need more of this. The article was good.
ReplyDeleteI see lots of FreeFor-leaning folks at ranges, popping off round after round from the bench. One wonders if indeed running and gunning is a possibility for some.
Now, bench shooting is fine, but we ALL can't be "snipers". Zero your weapon, and GET OFF THE BENCH! Move. Shoot from less than optimum conditions. Combine sprints with shooting.
CA-
Do you shoot 60 grain V-Max bullets? Do you like them? I've been loading 68 grain HPBTs, but I'd be interested in trying the V-Max bullets as well.
I figure a little experimenting can't hurt, considering the EPA was gracious enough to allow us to continue to use conventional bullets...
;-)
I agree with the comments on squaring up. The Magpul guys have some techniques of value, IMO. I have gained a lot by adjusting my support hand further forward, for example.
+1 on the lateral motion. Get off the "X". Gabe Suarez has valuable techniques and information on this. I hope to attend a class or two of his someday.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteMoving forward to engage is a proven positive tactic if you want to remove the enemy from future engagements.
CA,
Thanks for posting the link.
Georgia Arms makes a 60 gr VMax load that I am hoping will shoot approximately the same as M855:
ReplyDeletehttp://georgia-arms.com/223remington60grhornadyv-max100pk.aspx
Having read good things about the Hornady TAP load, I am hoping the GA Arms VMax shoots well.
Will report results.
Finding and using cover and concealment is as important. If you can be seen on the battlefield, you can be hit and killed.
ReplyDeleteV-max are varmint bombs, -not- SD ammo.
ReplyDelete5.56 has trouble to begin with, don't make it worse by using the wrong bullet.
Good choices are 60 grain Nosler partitions(FBI load), long 70+ grain bullets, Barnes X bullets and any of the bonded bullets.
Even better is practice with your m193 or m855 till you are proficient.
I live in South Texas and myself and a couple of friends do a little I.D.P.A., In the summer time it gets REALLY HOT, 105 degrees last Wednesday. We try to have a 3 gun shoot (Rifle/Carbine, Shotgun, Pistol)at least quarterly,quite fun if a little expensive. We also have a meet each Thursday. The courses can get quite intensive sometimes shooting from sitting (as in a car)to standing and moving to different positions while using cover, firearm and magazine changes all done against a combination of points and time and other competitors.
ReplyDeleteMost of us are in our 40´s and
50´s but in fairly good shape for a bunch of old coots and would take most younger men quite by surprise.
I recommend I.D.P.A. to anyone that wants to practice so called real world scenarios. You can use scenarios from I.D.P.A. and news articles(we often MAKE UP our own twisted scenarios).Practicing with the element of stress is why I started with I.D.P.A.and my skill with firearms HAS improved drastically and I have NO regrets about doing so. Shooting from the bench or tree stand is one thing but shooting while moving with the stress of completion is another.
Dennis
III
Texas
P.S. Justin, I use 168gr.V-Max in a Savage mod.10 FLP in.308 Win. they are the most consistent bullet I´ve found for THIS RIFLE so far. Please note V-Max bullets are not recommended for big game but use common sense and your own judgment about who er what you intend to shoot with the bullet that you will PLAN to use.
Force on Force is to IDPA as MMA is to Point-Based martial arts. IDPA is fairly useful, but it shouldn't be the only thing one does to train for an actual gunfight. FoF does a much better job of mimicking real-world (gun)fights.
ReplyDeleteAnon 11:32 what is FoF haven´t heard of it please explain.
ReplyDeleteDennis
III
Texas
Force on Force, FoF, is the use of airsoft, paintball, or simunitions to simulate as closely as possible an actual (gun)fight. This type of training actually involves at least two people fighting each other. This is done by either doing scenarios, such as one opponent approaching another and asking for directions with the intent of actually mugging or assaulting; or by doing skills training, such as simply starting a fight with some kind of cue and working it for only a few seconds (to prevent it getting out of control and becoming a game.)
ReplyDeleteDid a youtube search for Force on Force, and this one was the first one to come up. Looks like it's a highlight from a training DVD by Gabe Suarez.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcPYGfMAujo
Force on Force is the gun training world's equivalent to sparring in martial arts.
Also, Dog Brothers production featuring Gabe Suarez, Die Less Often is really great to show why all pistoleros should have some good knowledge of hand-to-hand and defense against knives, which are much more dangerous at close-range.
ReplyDeleteHere's the trailer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc&feature=related
CA,
ReplyDeleteI wanted to add to this topic that I've posted a course on regular physical conditioning (not tactical):
http://gardenserf.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/running-before-the-gunning/
Thanks.